Are pushers bad for tennis? - Page 9 - TennisForum.com
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post #121 of 157 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 10:16 PM
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Re: What is tennis?

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Originally Posted by ivanban View Post
That doesn't make sense at all. If you're receiving slow balls, don't you have more time to put yourself in the right position and smack the ball back?!
Not true at all, it's very easy to miss-hit shots at a pace you're not used to; even club level players will be able to tell you that.
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post #122 of 157 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 10:41 PM
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Re: Are pushers bad for tennis?

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Originally Posted by NashaMasha View Post
Pushers win over agressive players is more a mental win , they put players under pressure using their defense and just force them mentally collapse and go for too much instead of playing their game , which still can be enough to beat this pusher....

It's not what we want to see in sport. We don't want Usian Bolt's rivals to try to force him make a false start or F1 driver provoke car crashes . Pushers are provoking other player play ugly , that's why their matches are rarely of high quality and the matches between 2 pushers are a total crap which should not be broadcasted at all , only on private channells for perverts
This is way oversimplified. Although the mental collapse is part of it, a lot of these players can't beat "pushers" by just playing their game. Often, they go for too much because they know anything less will not be enough to win the point. If they can't keep the ball in play, they don't deserve to win.

You've conflated pushers with those who play mind games or cheat. The analogy to a sprint or car race makes no sense. Tennis is more a combination of boxing, chess, and a marathon.
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post #123 of 157 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 10:43 PM
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Re: Are pushers bad for tennis?

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Originally Posted by overrule View Post
Is an error "unforced" if it happens on the 20th shot of a rally? I would call that a forced error because the opponent made the player hit 19 shots prior to the miss.

I don't really care for the terms unforced error or winner. How can a player have only 5 winners when she won 65 points during the match? How were the errors unforced when the player was forced to hit the extra ball?

I would like to see a breakdown of how the players' points were won during a match. For example:

Total points won: 100
Balls hit out: 25
Balls hit into net: 50
Balls unreturned*: 25

* Balls unreturned includes clean winners as well as those points in which the ball never reached the net or crossed the net.

This type of box score eliminates the subjectivity of official scorers and gives a nice broad overview of how the points were won. I'd also like to see "total balls put in play" and "average rally length."
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Originally Posted by Start da Game View Post
concurred......unforced error is very subjective......what may seem unforced is quite often forced by the opponent......
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Originally Posted by bobito View Post
A very good point.

The terms "unforced error" and "forced error" are greatly overused to be honest. Consider the following scenarios:
  • Player has plenty of time and hits an easy ball into the net or out of the court
  • Player hits the 20th shot of a rally into the net
  • Player is in position to play the ball but mistimes it due to opponent's cleverly disguised change of pace
  • Player is wrong-footed and, though close enough to hit the ball, cannot get her feet in position to play the shot properly
  • Player is running from one side of the court to the other and, though able to reach the ball, has to play it on the run
  • Opponent (a good volleyer) is at the net and the player hits a passing shot wide (or a lob long)
  • Player chases down a ball but is only able to get the frame of her racquet on it

Only the first one is really an unforced error. The last, which would be called a forced error, is not really an error at all since the player could not reasonably have been expected to do better. In all of the other cases the opponent has a large part to play in the player missing and it would be a subjective judgement to call them forced or unforced errors.

It's frankly nonsense to be quoting unforced errors as a statistic.
That's what I'm really starting to take notice of. Is the person counting the W-UE ratio, the same person everytime? How do they do it? What do they look for to differentiate a FE from an UE? It's the FEs that never get shown on TV so the casual viewer is left to think that one player is 'pushing' and the other player is 'bbb'ing... which isn't fair.

Has there been an interview with a person who does this? Would like to see. Sometimes the numbers on the page tell a different story than when you watch the match. I've noticed this quite a bit.

It may all come down to how the person administering the stats live interprets the points.
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post #124 of 157 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 10:50 PM
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Re: What is tennis?

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Originally Posted by Brad[le]y. View Post
Not true at all, it's very easy to miss-hit shots at a pace you're not used to; even club level players will be able to tell you that.
That works only one way - if you're not used to fast balls

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post #125 of 157 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 10:50 PM
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Re: Are pushers bad for tennis?

In a short answer, I would have a tendancy to say yes
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post #126 of 157 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 10:53 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Are pushers bad for tennis?

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In a short answer, I would have a tendancy to say yes
Reason?
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post #127 of 157 (permalink) Old Jan 23rd, 2013, 11:18 AM
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Re: Are pushers bad for tennis?

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Originally Posted by koyak View Post

i did. and i'm back. maybe you'll grow up one day and realise there's more than one way to view the world, and tolerate other people's views.

btw i got a lot of positive feedback for my post on that thread. i'm pleased this thread exists as the attempted bullying of those who dislike pushers on here by the Polish radwanska fangirls is pathetic.

maybe it's an age thing. you're clearly quite young and immature and have never seen fast court tennis. sadly maybe you never will, and the borefests like radwanska vs errani are going to become the norm
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post #128 of 157 (permalink) Old Jan 23rd, 2013, 11:23 AM
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Re: Are pushers bad for tennis?

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Originally Posted by Monzanator View Post
At least women don't serve 30 aces per match to make it more interesting.
hradecka in Quebec last year was pretty close


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Originally Posted by Monzanator View Post
But I can watch Sharapova, Kvitova and Azarenka try to out-hit each other all day long and won't complain about the lack of variety but a similar match between Wozniacki, Jankovic or another random counterpuncher is just a turn off for me.
(though not sure about including azarenka in there )
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post #129 of 157 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2015, 04:49 AM
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Re: Are pushers bad for tennis?

Here is the problem.....tennis is taught in a manner by so-called "professionals" that is just plain WRONG. What they have done for generations is just observe what "the pros are doing", and then try to get you to copy it, killing your natural creativity....go to any local tournament, and inevitably, the winners are local guys who figured out their own creative way to hit the ball, and play the game, and the losers are "lesson players", guys with supposedly "nice strokes" , who get the pants beat off them because they think winning at tennis is doing what their pro told them to do....the heck with that! If you analyze it, most great players became great because they were innovators....they did things that nobody had done before, so when you faced them, you are seeing an entirely new game, and your game is predictable! The pusher is simply a creative, original player.....He has learned to observe what is going on, and figure out what works...he doesn't go by rules or opinions, he tries things, and sees what works...he is a MUC h better tennis player than you....he, like every good artist is saying, "You say that x is reality, but I am going to show you that Y is reality, too!" The tennis professionals of the world, by and large, ruin people's enthusiasm for the game by teaching everything backwards....in stead of allowing young players to figure out a natural way of hitting the ball, they try to "groove strokes" ....how much fun is that? And then the strokes don't even work in competition! Even at the Ivy League level, so many times the best players are self-taught kids who have unorthodox strategies, who took lessons AFTER they had already learned the game on their own....that's the right way to do it! Why are so many of e best players taught primarily by their amateur parents? Jimmy Connors, Bjorn Borg, John Mc Enroe, Michael Chang, Steffi Graf, Monica Seles, Rafa Nadal, Andy Murray, Stefan Edberg, Fabrice Santoro, Serena, Aga Radwanska, .....all these guys and gals had unusual strokes and strategies that baffled opponents...all were great innovators...and all knew how to push! You should learn the push game FIRST....How to massage the ball back, be consistent, survive the point, hustle, make gets, lob, drop, slice off both sideshow hard on the run.....ThEN you should learn the "grooved" power strokes....they are secondary...the screaming and the power striking leads to injuries.....learn to keep the ball in the court, THeN learn to finish it off....Tennis pros create a need by brainwashing people into thinking that hitting the ball the way they say is the way to win, and the ONlY way to win...if you lost, it's because you didn't hit it hard enough, or your form was off, or you didn't twist your wrist just right....and the correction is hours more of expensive lessons to "groove" that stroke again...what a racquet. True story: I had a friend who worked at the Bollitieri Academy during the era when Sampras and Agassi and Courier were there.....he announced one day to the kids that they were going to be working on the pusher game...that this was part of their development, and a difficult, but necessary step to becoming an all around player....one young lady, just short of 18, was the number one junior in the country....she observed for a while, then said...."That's all fine, but you're never going to beat anyone that way"...My friend, who was about 40 at the time, but a self taught guy who took up the game as an adult, and made it to the Challenger Circuit, told her..."let's play". ....he was not a natural pusher, but he played that style while she played her normal game....after he beat her, she quit tennis, and never returned to it.
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post #130 of 157 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2015, 10:33 AM
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Re: Are pushers bad for tennis?

Nope.
But Slowed HC/Carpets/Grass are.
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post #131 of 157 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2015, 10:49 AM
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Re: Are pushers bad for tennis?

no, you need variety of styles to make things interesting, imagine a tour full of big hitters?
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post #132 of 157 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2015, 02:26 PM
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Re: Are pushers bad for tennis?

Drug pushers are bad for all sports... just look at the recent bans in the IAAF.


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post #133 of 157 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2015, 03:03 PM
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Re: Are pushers bad for tennis?

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post #134 of 157 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2015, 03:18 PM
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Re: Are pushers bad for tennis?

I have no problem with defensive tennis, like Radwanska/Kerber/Jankovic, but players like Wozniacki and Errani just create the most boring matches, where every point ends with their opponent hitting the ball out. But I equally hate BBBs...

One thing I will say though is that having watched Wozniacki live, you wouldn't think she was a push as she actually hits the ball quite hard. It's just that she hits the ball into really big spaces. But Wozniacki on TV looks so bad.
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post #135 of 157 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2015, 03:20 PM
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Re: Are pushers bad for tennis?

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Originally Posted by chingching View Post
I have no problem with defensive tennis, like Radwanska/Kerber/Jankovic, but players like Wozniacki and Errani just create the most boring matches, where every point ends with their opponent hitting the ball out. But I equally hate BBBs...

One thing I will say though is that having watched Wozniacki live, you wouldn't think she was a push as she actually hits the ball quite hard. It's just that she hits the ball into really big spaces. But Wozniacki on TV looks so bad.
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