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View Poll Results: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?
2002 106 83.46%
2012 21 16.54%
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post #76 of 142 (permalink) Old Nov 12th, 2012, 10:45 PM
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

2002
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post #77 of 142 (permalink) Old Nov 12th, 2012, 11:27 PM
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVD View Post
This.

Serena is a by far a more complete and relaxed player in 2012 than she was in 2002.
More complete = More superior.
Purely in terms of wins/records, 2002 would appear the greater year.
However, the mental and technical improvements of 2012 Serena, would stomp 2002 Serena.
The 2002 version would quickly become frustrated with the 2012 version, and invariably lose.
One last note...
Let's not forget that Serena did achieve/complete the career Golden Slam thus year.
or the opposite, 2002 version was faster and better athlete, a few more balls in play could frustrate the 2012 of her well. She always had most trouble with good defenders.
This year she mostly played against one dimensional players.
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post #78 of 142 (permalink) Old Nov 12th, 2012, 11:32 PM
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVD View Post
This.

Serena is a by far a more complete and relaxed player in 2012 than she was in 2002.
More complete = More superior.
Purely in terms of wins/records, 2002 would appear the greater year.
However, the mental and technical improvements of 2012 Serena, would stomp 2002 Serena.
The 2002 version would quickly become frustrated with the 2012 version, and invariably lose.
One last note...
Let's not forget that Serena did achieve/complete the career Golden Slam thus year.
Mental? Absolute bull.
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post #79 of 142 (permalink) Old Nov 13th, 2012, 04:25 AM
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

The only reason this is an argument is because Serena has not been challenged at all this year. There is no one on tour capable of great tennis except for Serena which is a huge shame.

This does not detract from Serena's achievements, her skill or her hard work. However, at the same time let's not cheapen the greatness of PeakRena by comparing her to a much lesser model.

Serena 2002 was one of the fastest players ever, one of the strongest ever, one of the mentally toughest ever, best serve and best return.. great footwork, I mean every single aspect was there except spotty on consistency at times. She was ferocious and struck fear into her opponents. She won before stepping on the court.

The 2012 version is not nearly the same. All you need is a bad serving day and you have a chance.

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post #80 of 142 (permalink) Old Nov 13th, 2012, 04:31 AM
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVD View Post
This.

Serena is a by far a more complete and relaxed player in 2012 than she was in 2002.
More complete = More superior.
Purely in terms of wins/records, 2002 would appear the greater year.
However, the mental and technical improvements of 2012 Serena, would stomp 2002 Serena.
The 2002 version would quickly become frustrated with the 2012 version, and invariably lose.
One last note...
Let's not forget that Serena did achieve/complete the career Golden Slam thus year.
I disagree. Serena in 2002 was a much better athlete, arguably one of the fastest women in the game. To go along with that, she struck the ball of the ground better than anyone; watch the 2002 USO where she put Davenport and Venus on the defense nearly every point.

She's also more prone to go through mental lapses in big matches that she would never do in 2002, see this years Wimbledon and USO finals where she was comfortably outplaying Radwanska and Azarenka before unexplainably went off the rail.
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post #81 of 142 (permalink) Old Nov 13th, 2012, 04:33 AM
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

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Originally Posted by Brad[le]y. View Post
I disagree. Serena in 2002 was a much better athlete, arguably one of the fastest women in the game. To go along with that, she struck the ball of the ground better than anyone; watch the 2002 USO where she put Davenport and Venus on the defensive nearly every point.

She's also more prone to go through mental lapses in big matches that she would never do in 2002 (see this years Wimbledon and USO finals)
Wimbledon was understandable, because it had been so long since she had won a major. Of course there would be nerves.

On the flip side look at what she did to the field at the Olympics this year, the biggest stage in sports.


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post #82 of 142 (permalink) Old Nov 13th, 2012, 05:53 AM
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

2002 is still Serena's greatest year but for her to accomplish this year despite what happened in Paris is pretty extroardinary. And to add a career Golden Slam to the equation? 2012 certainly rivals 2002.
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post #83 of 142 (permalink) Old Nov 14th, 2012, 02:55 AM
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

Having, with much amusement, read through the myriad of subjective and for the most part reasonable opinions on the subject matter at hand, I think it is befitting if we now look at a comparison of the Serena Williams 2002 and 2012 tennis seasons from both a numerical and an analytical points of view.

At the foundation of the comparison, Serena competed in a total of 13 tournaments each of the 2002 and 2012 tennis seasons. However, unlike the 2002 season Serena in the 2012 season competed in four Fed Cup matches. In 2002 she played in a total of 61 matches, whereas, in 2012 she played in a total of 62 matches. In 2002 she was 3 - 0 against the World #1 ranked player, whereas, in 2012 she was 4 - 0 against the World #1 ranked player.

Numerically, the Serena Williams 2002 tennis season breaks down as follows:

Total Season Tournaments.........................13 Trn
Total Season matches played.........................61 matches
Total Season Win/Loss Percentage.................(56 - 5) = 92% (91.8)
Total Season Titles Won...........................8 Titles
Season Title Success..............................8/13 = 61.5%
Quality of Titles Won.............................(3 Grand Slams, 2 Tier I, 3 Tier II)
Season Top 10 ranked Win/Loss Percentage..........(18 - 2) = 90%
Season Top 5 ranked Win/Loss Percentage...........(10 - 0) = 100%.


Whereas, the numerical breakdown of the Serena Williams 2012 tennis season is as follows:

Total Season Tournaments..............................13 Trn
Total Season matches played...........................62 matches
Total Season Win/Loss percentage......................(58 - 4) = 93.5%
Total Season Titles Won............................... 7 Titles
Season Title Success...................................7/13 = 54% (53.8)
Quality of Titles Won............................(2 Grand Slams, 1 Tour Championship, 1 Olympic Gold Medal (Singles), 2 Tier I, 1 Tier II)
Season Top 10 Win/Loss Percentage......................(18 - 2) = 90%
Season Top 5 Win/Loss Percentage.......................(14 - 0) = 100%.


Clearly, those opinions opined in this thread in support of the idea that the Serena 2002 season was so superior to her 2012 season is not supported by the numerical evidence.

Analytically, the Serena Williams 2012 season is a greater season than her 2002 tennis season for the following reasons:

1. Greatness is a measurement against the level and greatness of competition at hand - the degree of difficulties to achieve a certain thing. In both the 2002 and the 2012 seasons Serena played 20 matches against top 10 ranked players and in both season she won (18 - 2)= 90% of those matches. But, in the 2002 season she was 10 - 0, including 3 - 0 against the World #1 ranked player, against World Top 5 ranked players. Whereas, in the 2012 season Serena went 14 - 0, including 4 - 0 against the World #1 ranked player, against the World Top 5 ranked players. [N.B: The notion that the level of competition in 2002 was greater than it was in 2012 is unsupported and is nothing but a myth].

2. The science of probabilities furnishes three principles of which practical use is made in the determination of the possibility of a certain event: (1) the law of certainty, (2) the law of simple probability, and (3) the law of compound probability. The use of these methods of probabilities makes possible the description of risk and difficulties in terms of mathematical values. As such, the Serena Williams of the 2002 season was 21 years young, whereas, the Serena Williams of the 2012 season was 31 years old. Moreover, factor in the difficulties the specter of the injury propensity poses between the 21 years and 31 years old Serena:

2003 - Underwent left knee surgery on August 1 to repair a partial tear, withdrawing from all events after Wimbledon (incl. US Open, Tour Championships).

*[Had professional Psychological attention to deal with the 2003 murder of her oldest sister, finally came to terms with that tragedy by the time to the 2007 Australian Open, at which time she dedicated her win then to her late sister in her winners speech].

2004 - Returned to Tour after eight-month lay-off due to knee rehabilitation and had fourth straight Top 10 finish. San Diego (withdrew w/left knee inflammation). Charleston (withdrew prior to 3r w/left knee inflammation). Withdrew from Australian Open w/left knee rehabilitation.

2005 - After impressive run to sixth Grand Slam singles title, injury-plagued season resulted in first non-Top 10 finish since 1998. Paris [Indoors] (withdrew before QF w/GI illness), Dubai (ret. in SF vs. Jankovic w/right shoulder strain). Amelia Island (ret. in QF vs. Farina Elia w/left ankle sprain). Toronto (withdrew before 3r w/left knee pain). Withdrew from Roland Garros w/left ankle injury; did not qualify for Tour Championships for first time since 1998.

2006 - Nearly finished outside Top 100 for first time after injury-plagued season; fell 3r at Australian Open (l. to Hantuchova) then withdrew from all events until summer w/left knee injury (incl. Roland Garros, Wimbledon); on April 10, ranked outside Top 100 for first time since November 16, 1997; on July 10, fell to No.140 (down from No.11 at start of 2006); ended six-month layoff with three summer events, reaching SF at Cincinnati (l. to Zvonareva), SF at Los Angeles (l. to Jankovic; returned to Top 100 afterwards, having spent 18 weeks outside) and 4r at US Open (as WC, l. to No.1 Mauresmo in 3s); played only four events all year, lowest in Top 100 (next-lowest was V.Williams with six).

2007 - Charleston (ret. 2r w/right groin strain), Zürich (ret. 1r w/right adductor strain) and Tour Championships (ret. in first RR match w/left knee injury then withdrew from tournament). Missed all pre-US Open summer hardcourt events w/left thumb sprain (suffered at Wimbledon).

2008 - Rome (withdrew prior to match vs. Cornet w/back injury). Tour Championships (went 1-1 in RR stage then withdrew from event w/abdominal injury). Withdrew from Paris [Indoors], Antwerp and Dubai w/recovery from gum surgery, Los Angeles w/left knee injury and Moscow w/left ankle injury.

2009 - Paris [Indoors] (as top seed, withdrew prior to match vs. No.3 seed Dementieva w/right knee injury). Madrid (as No.2 seed, ret. vs. Schiavone w/right knee injury in 1r). Withdrew from Charleston w/left leg injury, and from Tokyo w/left knee and toe injury.

2010- Missed three months early in season w/left knee injury (withdrawing from Paris [Indoors], Dubai, Miami, Marbella and Charleston) and all post-Wimbledon events w/right foot injury (withdrawing from Istanbul, Cincinnati, Montréal, US Open, Tokyo, Beijing, Linz and WTA Championships).

2011 - Sensational summer results after year-long injury and illness lay-off (finishing No.12); missed first half of year w/right foot injury and PE (withdrew from Australian Open, Indian Wells, Miami, Charleston, Madrid, Rome and Roland Garros) but returned in June, going 4-2 during grass court season (reaching 2r at Eastbourne and 4r at Wimbledon) then compiling 18-1 record during summer hardcourt season, winning 38th and 39th WTA titles at Stanford (d. Bartoli in final) and Toronto (d. Stosur in final), reaching 2r at Cincinnati (withdrew prior to match vs. Stosur w/right toe injury aggravation) then reaching 17th Grand Slam final at US Open (l. to Stosur; now 13-4 in Grand Slam finals); withdrew from Tokyo and Beijing w/medical reasons.

Source: http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/p...s_2257889_9044

No further amplification of this factor is warranted here as it is too obvious.

3. Although the number of titles Serena won in 2002 is numerically bigger than those she won in 2012, the titles she won in 2012 are of better quality that makes things almost even is this aspect. In terms of quality, including ranking points value, 1 Olympic Gold Medal (Singles) title plus 1 Tour Championship title is equivalent or greater to 1 Grand Slam Singles title. For example, the ranking system currently awards a total of 2000 points for Grand Slam title, but it offers a total of 2185 ranking points for combination of the Tour Championship title and the Olympic Gold Medal title.

4. Finally, that which goes towards the singularly most distinguishing aspect of the Serena Williams 2012 tennis season is the 2012 Olympics Tournament. Not merely the winning of the Olympic Singles Gold Medal provides Serena with a Career Golden Slam, but the 2012 Olympic Tournament was the singularly most dominated tournament by an individual player in the Opera Era of professional tennis. In 6 matches played for the Olympic Singles Gold Medal, including 5 matches against top 20 ranked players, Serena drops a mere 17 games to the titles, and she also puts on the display that which can be only describe as the highest tennis performance level in the history of the sport.

Therefore, numerically and analytically it appears that the Serena Williams 2012 season is probably her best tennis season ever.

laj

Last edited by laj; Nov 14th, 2012 at 03:20 AM.
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post #84 of 142 (permalink) Old Nov 14th, 2012, 03:03 AM
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

Wow laj, i've never seen so much garbage.

3/3 is better than 2/4. Always. Always.

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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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post #85 of 142 (permalink) Old Nov 14th, 2012, 03:16 AM
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

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Wow laj, i've never seen so much garbage.

3/3 is better than 2/4. Always. Always.
I will not dignify your "so much garbage" comment with an answer. However, it is true that 3 of 3 is than 2 out of 4, but that's not whole story and you know it. LOL!

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post #86 of 142 (permalink) Old Nov 14th, 2012, 03:17 AM
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

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Originally Posted by SorcererIRL View Post
Hard to say. But without a doubt, Godrena is the greatest player of all time, she can dominate the game full of young rivals and still win 2 slams a year, much better than overrated Graf IMO
Navratilova > Williams > Graf
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post #87 of 142 (permalink) Old Nov 14th, 2012, 03:18 AM
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

Quote:
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I will not dignify your "so much garbage" comment with an answer. However, it is true that 3 of 3 is than 2 out of 4, but that's not whole story and you know it. LOL!
It really is. Would you rather have 3 slams or 2? Everyone will say 3. She was perfect in slams that year. That is much more rare than anything else you put in that long post.

And I apologize if garbage seemed too harsh. I just felt like it was a lot of maneuvering numbers to make a point.

I always wanted to be somebody. If I made it, it's half because I was game enough to take a lot of punishment along the way and half because there were a lot of people who cared enough to help me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrinbaker00 View Post
When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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post #88 of 142 (permalink) Old Nov 14th, 2012, 03:21 AM
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

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Wrong. Nobody beats peak Rena.
Peak Seremug couldn't even beat my cat, Buttons
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post #89 of 142 (permalink) Old Nov 14th, 2012, 03:34 AM
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
It really is. Would you rather have 3 slams or 2? Everyone will say 3. She was perfect in slams that year. That is much more rare than anything else you put in that long post.

And I apologize if garbage seemed too harsh. I just felt like it was a lot of maneuvering numbers to make a point.
Apology accepted!

My intension was never to maneuver the numbers to make a point. Rather, I aimed to show that by the number the 2002 season, although slightly better, the 2002 season was not so superior to that of 2012. Secondly, that at age 31 it was naturally much, much more difficult and improbable for Serena to achieved what she achieved in 2012 than when she achieved what she achieved in 2002. Thirdly, the 2012 Olympic Tournament was a stand out performance. To me that was the equalizer and tie-breaker.

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post #90 of 142 (permalink) Old Nov 14th, 2012, 05:14 AM
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Re: Which is Serena Williams's best season so far? 2002 or 2012?

Quote:
Originally Posted by laj View Post
Apology accepted!

My intension was never to maneuver the numbers to make a point. Rather, I aimed to show that by the number the 2002 season, although slightly better, the 2002 season was not so superior to that of 2012. Secondly, that at age 31 it was naturally much, much more difficult and improbable for Serena to achieved what she achieved in 2012 than when she achieved what she achieved in 2002. Thirdly, the 2012 Olympic Tournament was a stand out performance. To me that was the equalizer and tie-breaker.
Laj, your points were completely credible and logical. And I'm not the only one who thinks this.

What I don't understand is why so many posters feel that double Olympic Gold is on the same level as a Tier I tournament.
Come on people. Are you all serious?
So what, Serena flubbed the FO. Small deal there.
She still returned thereafter to annihilate the field on the largest stages for the second half of this year.
I could possibly accept that 2002 is equal to 2012 in terms to tournament success. However, Serena did not win the 2002 YEC, and also there was no Olympics that year. But this year she took both, and in dominating fashion.
IMHO, these are the two events that sets 2012 and 2002 apart for me.

As far as Serena being a step faster in 2002. I agree that she was.
But today, she no longer has to be as fast as her 2002 self since she is a more complete player, and has a wider arsenal of shots on which to fall back on to negate the necessity of speed. Though even in 2012, she's still one of the fastest WTA athletes in the field.
So speed is negligible in the overall argument.

No one has yet truly demonstrated how 2002 is superior to 2012. Even in terms of achievements.
What I've been reading is all relative opinion.
That said, I maintain that 2012 was a monster year for Serena, and edges out 2002.

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