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post #241 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2012, 02:33 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by hingisGOAT View Post
So now Hingis was "waxed shamelessly" from 1999-2002? Seriously? She made a ton of GS semis and finals in that time, and almost every single match she lost was competitive, in fact many of them were chokes. This shows a decline and a mental weakness on Hingis' part (along with stamina issues IMO) -- most of those losses were the result of her own decline in form.

And once again, almost every time Hingis lost a match, EVER, it was to a more powerful opponent. Such are the breaks when you're 5'6 and hit 90mph first serves. That does NOT mean Hingis was over-powered -- there are other ways to lose a tennis match, you know. In fact I can't think of a single match from 96-01 where someone's power was totally uncontrollable for Martina, or made her cough up a bunch of moonballs that barely clipped the net. Never happened, because Hingis' ability to fight off someone's power was the absolute LEAST of her problems. For the millionth time I'll repeat a point nobody has refuted, because it makes total sense: it was Hingis' own play that cost her -- she was generally less imaginative, more error prone, and mentally weaker as the years went on. Her h2h records show it was more effective to try to outlast Hingis and run her around than it was to try and blast the ball by her. Her fitness was a HUGE issue, and if the match was close enough, Hingis would often choke.
So opponents had so many options to beat her: overpower her, push her to death, grind her to dust, any more...? Only shows that if you can have stamina and mental issues at 19-21, you are being seriously affected by your competition. Simple as that. It got tougher to coast through the field and she failed to do anything about it. 5' 6"? Justine was 5' 5 3/4" and could hit serves above 120 MPH. She did not develop muscles, she just worked hard and solidified her technique.

I am glad you could at least admit she was lazy and did not develop as a player.
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post #242 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2012, 02:51 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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I am glad you could at least admit she was lazy and did not develop as a player.
Admit? That's been my whole point. Her records are due to her immense talent, but ultimately she is one of the great underachievers in tennis' history, because she never put in the work.

BTW love how you are trying to be snarky and antagonistic with that remark, as if anyone gives two shits how hard Hingis did or didn't work. If Hingis fans wanted to admire average talents that over-achieved like hell by lifting weights 10 hours a day, we would probably be Henin fans now wouldn't we? Lmao.

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post #243 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2012, 02:55 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Justine was 5' 5 3/4" and could hit serves above 120 MPH. She did not develop muscles
How the HELL did I miss this gem? You seriously just said Justine did not develop muscles? As if the 20 pounds she magically gained in two months in early 2003 was an optical illusion!

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post #244 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2012, 03:09 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by hingisGOAT View Post
Admit? That's been my whole point. Her records are due to her immense talent, but ultimately she is one of the great underachievers in tennis' history, because she never put in the work.

BTW love how you are trying to be snarky and antagonistic with that remark, as if anyone gives two shits how hard Hingis did or didn't work. If Hingis fans wanted to admire average talents that over-achieved like hell by lifting weights 10 hours a day, we would probably be Henin fans now wouldn't we? Lmao.
Talent doesn't make you a great champion.
Hard work, perseverance and strength of will are all as important as talent.

That's why Hingis will never be considered on the same level of Venus, Henin, or Serena.

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post #245 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2012, 03:36 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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How the HELL did I miss this gem? You seriously just said Justine did not develop muscles? As if the 20 pounds she magically gained in two months in early 2003 was an optical illusion!
Muscles as in bulging biceps, which some deluded fan claimed would happen with strength training. Ignorant fools

So Hingis was an underachiever just because she COULD have been even better with hard work? No guarantees, baby. WE are talking she MIGHT have, but she never did, so she did not underachieve, she never even found out if she could be better or that was as good as she was capable of being. Ultimately, doesn't matter, it was as good as she got.
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post #246 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2012, 04:48 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by hingisGOAT View Post
So now Hingis was "waxed shamelessly" from 1999-2002? Seriously? She made a ton of GS semis and finals in that time, and almost every single match she lost was competitive, in fact many of them were chokes. This shows a decline and a mental weakness on Hingis' part (along with stamina issues IMO) -- most of those losses were the result of her own decline in form.

And once again, almost every time Hingis lost a match, EVER, it was to a more powerful opponent. Such are the breaks when you're 5'6 and hit 90mph first serves. That does NOT mean Hingis was over-powered -- there are other ways to lose a tennis match, you know. In fact I can't think of a single match from 96-01 where someone's power was totally uncontrollable for Martina, or made her cough up a bunch of moonballs that barely clipped the net. Never happened, because Hingis' ability to fight off someone's power was the absolute LEAST of her problems. For the millionth time I'll repeat a point nobody has refuted, because it makes total sense: it was Hingis' own play that cost her -- she was generally less imaginative, more error prone, and mentally weaker as the years went on. Her h2h records show it was more effective to try to outlast Hingis and run her around than it was to try and blast the ball by her. Her fitness was a HUGE issue, and if the match was close enough, Hingis would often choke.
Um...yes...

And um...no...

Waxed, buffed, and shined...

Example #1



Also, take note of those 1st serves.

And listen closely to the commentators.

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post #247 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2012, 05:28 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Hingis in her matches with the Williams by 2000-2002 was limited to between 4-11 winners per match, even when it went 3 sets (which was the only time she would eke into double digits on rare occasions), vs the always 30+ or more Serena or Venus hit. Even in the 99 U.S Open Hingis was limited to something like 7 winners in a long 2 set match, lol! While winners stats arent everything (just look at Federer and Nadal), and Hingis does force some unforced errors from her opponents, how one can deduce from that the matches were on Hingis's racquet and hers to win or lose when she could only truly win single digit # of points the whole match on her very own, are beyond any comprehension. I am also not a fan of Venus imparticular, but I am not blind to reality.

As for being totally overpowered Hingis was totally overpowered by Davenport at the 98 U.S Open, 99 Sydney event, 99 Year End Event, 2000 Australian Open, basically any match she played Lindsay from late 98-early 2000 minus the 98 WTA Championships. Against Serena she was totally overpowered in 2 of their last 3 matches, the first set of the 2000 Canadian Open where Serena held Hingis to 0 winners for the set before Serena incurred an injury and had to retire, obviously the 99 U.S Open where she was held to 7 winners even though Serena choking at the end of the 2nd set made it interesting only at the very end, and the 99 Miami match. I will give her credit that against Venus despite the huge disparity in winners totals she did seem able to hang in, and engage Venus in many long and hard fought rallies, so against Venus perhaps you could say she wasnt totally overpowered, but against Davenport and Serena she often was.
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post #248 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2012, 05:59 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Wow some people talk like Martina never won a match against Serena, Lindsay or Venus.

She has an extremely good H2H record with all of them. She was highly competitive and always made matches interesting (including winning a lot too!).

She's definitely not overrated. I think the reason why a lot of people hold her in high regard was because of the brand of tennis she played. She may not have won as many slams as Venus, Henin or Serena but people remember her game and how beautiful it was to watch.

She definitely still won a hell of a lot, and should have won more probably, but she is one of the greats of the game along with Serena (GOAT imo), Venus, Lindsay and Justine.
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post #249 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2012, 06:03 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Overrated?

LOL, before moving to Switzerland at seven or eight she already topped Czechoslovakia's rankings for 10-year-old girls, frequently beating even the 12-year-olds. And those youngest-ever records still stand. Insanely talented girl.

But since 2000s, the competition got tougher and her talent alone was not enough to win more slams (though she held 4 consecutive matchpoints in the 2002 AO final) and she probably didn't want to work hard - and admittedly got injured - so she took her $50m+ on- and off-court earnings and withdrew from the tour.

No, she's not overrated, but she didn't work as hard as she could have.
Such a lie. She had 4 mp, but none of them consecutive.

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post #250 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2012, 07:53 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by mistymore View Post
Hingis in her matches with the Williams by 2000-2002 was limited to between 4-11 winners per match, even when it went 3 sets (which was the only time she would eke into double digits on rare occasions), vs the always 30+ or more Serena or Venus hit. Even in the 99 U.S Open Hingis was limited to something like 7 winners in a long 2 set match, lol! While winners stats arent everything (just look at Federer and Nadal), and Hingis does force some unforced errors from her opponents, how one can deduce from that the matches were on Hingis's racquet and hers to win or lose when she could only truly win single digit # of points the whole match on her very own, are beyond any comprehension. I am also not a fan of Venus imparticular, but I am not blind to reality.

As for being totally overpowered Hingis was totally overpowered by Davenport at the 98 U.S Open, 99 Sydney event, 99 Year End Event, 2000 Australian Open, basically any match she played Lindsay from late 98-early 2000 minus the 98 WTA Championships. Against Serena she was totally overpowered in 2 of their last 3 matches, the first set of the 2000 Canadian Open where Serena held Hingis to 0 winners for the set before Serena incurred an injury and had to retire, obviously the 99 U.S Open where she was held to 7 winners even though Serena choking at the end of the 2nd set made it interesting only at the very end, and the 99 Miami match. I will give her credit that against Venus despite the huge disparity in winners totals she did seem able to hang in, and engage Venus in many long and hard fought rallies, so against Venus perhaps you could say she wasnt totally overpowered, but against Davenport and Serena she often was.
Its all about match-ups. Serena at her best had no weakness and actually has the strengths of both lindsay and venus - great serve which was difficult to read, great groundstrokes, was able to sustain a high level of play and her athleticism.

The thing with venus is that even when she was playing well she had her ups and downs, and martina didnt have as much trouble reading her serve compared to lindsay and serena. If you've watched her match against venus at the grand slam cup you'll see what I mean. That first set she was blown away but she started getting used to it, attacking both venues first and second serves...really stepping inside the baseline. She could kinda do it against davenport and try move her around but with serena this was kinda impossible.

But I agree with you - huge hingis fan but I dont understand why people say she wasn't overpowered. Had she improved on that serve of hers it would of helped her overcome that problem. Although I always felt that her only problem was serena and lindsay to a lesser extent. I mean her 2000 us open and wimbledon matches against venus were winable you know. Although I haven't seen any of her matches against venus after the 2001 aus open, I did a bit of research and even in those matched she had set point and break point opportunities but yeh
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post #251 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2012, 07:58 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Absolutly. She's been a great junior and outstanding talent when she came on tour but she wasn't able to work on her game.

It was painful to see such a gifted player with such a horrible service. Even the technique was horrible. It still was the serve of 10-year-old girl

She took the chance in the era between Graf/Seles and the Americans (Davenport/Williams-sisters).
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post #252 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2012, 08:05 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Absolutly. She's been a great junior and outstanding talent when she came on tour but she wasn't able to work on her game.

It was painful to see such a gifted player with such a horrible service. Even the technique was horrible. It still was the serve of 10-year-old girl

She took the chance in the era between Graf/Seles and the Americans (Davenport/Williams-sisters).
Yeh. You know the funny thing is, the commentators in her match against henin in sydney said she had a better motion...I always thought it was just a racquet head speed and eventually a mental/confidence problem. Apparently her mum said they didnt want to push to improve her serve because it put a strain on her.
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post #253 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2012, 09:28 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by mistymore View Post
Hingis in her matches with the Williams by 2000-2002 was limited to between 4-11 winners per match, even when it went 3 sets (which was the only time she would eke into double digits on rare occasions), vs the always 30+ or more Serena or Venus hit. Even in the 99 U.S Open Hingis was limited to something like 7 winners in a long 2 set match, lol! While winners stats arent everything (just look at Federer and Nadal), and Hingis does force some unforced errors from her opponents, how one can deduce from that the matches were on Hingis's racquet and hers to win or lose when she could only truly win single digit # of points the whole match on her very own, are beyond any comprehension.
So what we're to make of players like Sharapova, Azarenka or Capriati who also regularly were with single digits in winner count vs Serena or Venus? IIRC Capriati hit 5 winners in her 2001 US semi against Venus.

Hey, Kournikova used to hit like 30 winners against Martina when they played. I think she won one match out of 13 or so.

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post #254 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2012, 11:35 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

more news with martina now

sunday 30 september = this birthday with 32 years old
this 1 and 2 october martina will promoting tennis in kazaksthan ( astana + almaty )

http://www.inform.kz/eng/article/2497905


and more news on this official twitter and facebook

https://twitter.com/mhingis

http://www.facebook.com/MartinaHingisOfficial
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post #255 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2012, 01:04 PM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Morning Morgan View Post
Such a lie. She had 4 mp, but none of them consecutive.
Thanks for the correction, it seems that the website I took the info from got it wrong. My point was obviously that in 2002 Hingis was FOUR times just one point from another slam (i.e. extremely close from winning), regardless of the consecutive/non-consecutive thing.

And, BTW, behave yourself, unless you want to be called a liar every time you make a little unintentional mistake.
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