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post #166 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:28 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by hingisGOAT View Post
Do you consider Rebound Ace its own "surface"? It certainly played nothing like other hard-courts. 6 straight AO finals is one of her greatest achievements; how many RG finals did Henin make, consecutively or not?
You want numbers...Lets talk numbers

Win % at best Slam: Justine 38-5 = 88.4%, Hingis 52-7 = 88.2%
Titles won, number of times played: Justine 4/9 = 44%, Hingis 3/10 = 30%
Finals record: Justine 4/4, Hingis 3/6

Career win % on surface: Justine 163/29 = 84.9%, Hingis 290/74 = 79.7% (OK, so I did it for hardcourts)

None of these stats could be used to suggest that Hingis dominated AO more than Justine did RG, but lets see you try.
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post #167 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:29 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Slightly OT: why do people consider Hingis to be part of the Williams/Belgian generation? For me, when a player peaked is more important in determining what generation a player is part of rather than age, and considering Graf won her last Slam after Hingis won her last Slam (unbelievable though that sounds), I would say Hingis should be considered part of the Graf/Seles Generation.
Hingis turned pro in 1994.
Venus turned pro in 1994.
Serena turned pro in 1995.
Kim turned pro in 1997.
Justine turned pro in 1999.

The only one who might be argued to be of another generation would be Justine.
But even that is a difficult argument to make when you consider the definition:


gen·er·a·tion/ˌjenəˈrāSHən/

Noun:
  • All of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively: "one of his generation's finest songwriters".
  • The average period, generally considered to be about thirty years, during which children grow up and have children of their own.

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post #168 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:42 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by mistymore View Post
Hingis wasnt really part of either the Graf/Seles era or the Williams/Belgian one. She and Davenport were the transition era. They won all their slams after aging Graf and early peaking/declining Seles had won their last (minus a late French for Graf), and before Venus/Serena won any of theirs (Lindsay won 1 last Aussie immediately after Serena won her 1st of now 15 slams). However as they were truly part of neither era, they are morphed mainly into the Williams/Belgian era as those players are a bit closer in age overall (well atleast to Hingis they certainly are) and Hingis battled the Williams for a few years near the top, and Davenport battled all 4 players near the top for years, despite both being shut out of winning any slams once those 4 superior players emerged.
For me, considering Hingis's best year was when Serena was barely playing and the Belgians were still in juniors, it just seems weird to put them in the same generation. I mean, the supporting cast in Hingis's best years were ALL members of the 90s Generation (Graf, Seles, Sanchez Vicario, Novotna, etc.).

I don't know, it is tricky. And actually, I have to say my instinct would've been to group Davenport as part of the 00s Generation, even though logically I guess if Hingis is part of the 90s Generation then Davenport would have to be too.
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post #169 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:50 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by hingisGOAT View Post
Can someone explain to me how the hell Hingis was "overpowered"?
Okay. In 2000, Hingis slam record was F, S Q, S, she won five Tier I's and was ranked #1 all year. Off year for her casue she didn't win a slam, but a pretty good year.

Fast forward to 2001. This is just the results against relatively successful power players. (For example, the win over ALexandra Stevenson is not listed.)

She comes out of the blocks guns blazing, as usual.

SYDNEY ........ R16 CLIJSTERS, KIM........ W 6-4 6-4
SYDNEY ........ QTR WILLIAMS, SERENA...... W 6-4 7-5
SYDNEY ........ WIN DAVENPORT, LINDSAY.... W 6-3 4-6 7-5
AUS OPEN ...... QTR WILLIAMS, SERENA ..... W 6-2 3-6 8-6
AUS OPEN ...... SMI WILLIAMS, VENUS ...... W 6-1 6-1

But then ....

AUS OPEN ...... FNL CAPRIATI, JENNIFER ... L 6-4 6-3
TPP ........... FNL DAVENPORT, LINDSAY ... L 6-7(4) 6-4 6-2
INDIAN WELLS .. SMI CLIJSTERS, KIM ....... L 6-2 2-6 6-1
MIAMI ......... SMI WILLIAMS, VENUS ...... L 6-3 7-6(6)
CHARLESTON .... QTR MAURESMO, AMELIE* .... W 7-5 6-2
CHARLESTON .... FNL CAPRIATI, JENNIFER ... L 6-0 4-6 6-4
BERLIN ........ SMI MAURESMO, AMELIE ..... L 2-6 6-0 6-4
ROME .......... SMI MAURESMO, AMELIE ..... L 6-4 7-6(5)
FRENCH OPEN ... SMI CAPRIATI, JENNIFER ... L 6-4 6-3
SAN DIEGO ..... SMI SELES, MONICA ........ L 6-3 6-4
LOS ANGELES ... SMI SELES, MONICA ........ L 6-3 1-6 6-4
US OPEN ....... SMI WILLIAMS, SERENA ..... L 6-3 6-2
MOSCOW ........ QTR DEMENTIEVA, ELENA .... L 6-2 6-2
FILDERSTADT ... SMI DAVENPORT, LINDSAY ... L 2-1 RET




Putting aside the fact that that was a year which saw a LOT of televised women's tennis, so I saw most of those matches, how do look at who she's losing to and NOT see 'overpowered'? She lost in the US Open semi to 'Wild Thing'!

And no, I'm not skipping any wins over power players. For most of that year, the first power base-liner who was any good she faced, she lost to.

Her only other two losses that year were to ASV on clay, and that inexplicable loss to Ruano-Pascual at Wimbledon.

* Back then Mauresmo was a power player.

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Last edited by Volcana; Sep 26th, 2012 at 12:58 AM.
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post #170 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2012, 12:58 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by mistymore View Post
Throwing away a title doesnt mean not winning when you went in as a contender. Yeah going in she had good chances at those events, but in the end she was outplayed and well beaten by someone else. How is that throwing it away. By your logic we could say nearly every player could have twice or more as many slams as they did.

2000 French- was outplayed by Pierce. Pierce choked away the 2nd set and still won decisively in the 3rd. Yes she usually beats Pierce but on this day Pierce was the better player.

2001 Australian- yeah was favored over Capriati, but Capriati outplayed her that day. Capriati would win all 3 of her matches with Hingis that year, so in hindsight the expected result anyway.

1997 French- was totally overpowered by Majoli in final. Came in short on match play with horse riding accident, was well below her best, and did well to even make the final. If anyone blew it, Seles blew that semifinal match with Hingis which she should have won but threw away with that awful 11th game of the 2nd set.

I guess we have different meanings of what is throwing something away.
I understand why you only mentioned RG 99 and AO 2002 as her throwing them away because she had those matches wrapped up and let them go.

I wouldn't say she "threw away" the tournaments I mentioned, just that she had a great chance at winning them, should have, but didn't.
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post #171 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2012, 02:21 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Volcana, those were the top players she lost to! Who else was going to beat Martina, if not them? I'm sure Davenport's losses look very similar... Venus, Serena, Kim, Monica, Jennifer... was Lindsay overpowered as well? There is a difference between an opponent being more powerful, and being overpowered.

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post #172 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2012, 02:33 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Hingis overrated . More like underrated.
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post #173 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2012, 03:45 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

I miss her, i miss Conchita, Tauziat, Momo. Anyone able to think on a tennis court.

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post #174 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2012, 03:52 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
For me, considering Hingis's best year was when Serena was barely playing and the Belgians were still in juniors, it just seems weird to put them in the same generation. I mean, the supporting cast in Hingis's best years were ALL members of the 90s Generation (Graf, Seles, Sanchez Vicario, Novotna, etc.).

I don't know, it is tricky. And actually, I have to say my instinct would've been to group Davenport as part of the 00s Generation, even though logically I guess if Hingis is part of the 90s Generation then Davenport would have to be too.
Hence why I considered her possibly a "place holder" or "transition" between two different eras of tennis.
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post #175 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2012, 03:58 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

LMAO People talking about a transition between 2 eras!? I say 1997-1999 IS an era.

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post #176 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2012, 04:48 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

Why did Seles have a dire poor record vs Hingis?

make up your mind man
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post #177 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2012, 04:53 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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I purposely troll with Seles fans. I like getting a rise out of them. They are so extreme and delusional in their favorable bias when it comes to her, it is fun to go in the other direction and see how they eat it up (which they do of course).
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post #178 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2012, 04:57 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by hingisGOAT View Post
Volcana, those were the top players she lost to! Who else was going to beat Martina, if not them? I'm sure Davenport's losses look very similar... Venus, Serena, Kim, Monica, Jennifer... was Lindsay overpowered as well? There is a difference between an opponent being more powerful, and being overpowered.
It's not just the players, it the pattern.

Venus lost to those same players. Capriati lost to those players. But 13 time out of 14?!?!?

The headline isn't who she lost to, it's that a way to beat her consistently had emerged at all.

Hingis was Rubik's Cube. Rubik's Cube can be solved. Not everybody can solve it.

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post #179 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2012, 05:25 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Olórin View Post
She is overrated on this board, like peak-Pierce. People have no idea what they're talking about usually - haven't seen either play enough.
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Maybe by a lot of her fans, especially the likes of Smitten who call her "Legend" mainly for trolling purposes.

In general however, not really.
Basically!

LOL @ hingisGOAT, though

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Well, at least Simona was able to beat Serena once, Maria... never good enough to do that.
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post #180 of 326 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2012, 06:52 AM
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Re: Martina Hingis, overrated?

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Originally Posted by Volcana View Post

Putting aside the fact that that was a year which saw a LOT of televised women's tennis, so I saw most of those matches, how do look at who she's losing to and NOT see 'overpowered'? She lost in the US Open semi to 'Wild Thing'!

And no, I'm not skipping any wins over power players. For most of that year, the first power base-liner who was any good she faced, she lost to.

Her only other two losses that year were to ASV on clay, and that inexplicable loss to Ruano-Pascual at Wimbledon.
I'm afraid your analysis is highly misleading. Losses were indication of her overall decline, rather than any mythical Holy Grail discovered by power players "oh so THAT'S how you beat Martina". Look at how she was beaten by her regular bitches - ASV, Seles, Ruano-Pascual. I mean, she usually dropped almost no games at all to ASV, then was beaten by her in straights. WTF?

I was watching back around then, too. I remember 2001 well, and as the year progressed it was obvious she was a wreck. Roland Garros semi against Capriati was one of the worst Hingis matches I've seen - it was not that she was overpowered, but she hit giantanormous amount of UE's.

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