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post #121 of 572 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2012, 04:02 PM
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by n1_and_uh_noone View Post
Think about her mastery of every surface, her Golden Slam, her weeks at the top, her finals record
That's why she is voted the greatest all time player on almost every poll
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post #122 of 572 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2012, 07:24 PM
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by jerriy View Post
^ You have no point. Graf is never overlooked (not even once).

I don't remember ever (even once) when a GOAT debate didn't involve discussing Graf (as well as Navratilova by the way). Those two are never out of any contention. Everyone else, i.e. Court, Evert, Serena (when she's not "current affairs" item) are the ones who are and will continue to be overlooked from time to time. This is largely because the entire GOAT obsession started during the era of Navra-Graf (plus importantly: Sampras on the men's side). Before that period, there wasn't even any "goat debate" to speak of. People were satisfied asserting that certain players were one of the greats.




.
Sometimes you wonder if this post was created to argue something that didn't exist (or for other ulterior motives).

No one agrees with the premise. Graf is either right where she's supposed to be or overrated a tad, cause some people feel others are left out at her expense.

For her to be "underrated", it would have to be as another poster said earlier, "that there shouldn't be a debate at all", cause that's how great she is.

Note: I'm not advocating that notion here, just trying to cover various sides of the current argument.

Last edited by Excelscior; Sep 20th, 2012 at 07:29 PM.
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post #123 of 572 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2012, 07:36 PM
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
In slam finals? no.

To compare 2012 to 2002 is insane, especially her 2002 USO form which was top 5 tennis in the history of the women's game.
Yes as equally dominating as her Olympics form.

And I'm not comparing ANY year, you're the only one doing it.

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post #124 of 572 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2012, 07:44 PM
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Excelscior View Post

For her to be "underrated", it would have to be as another poster said earlier, "that there shouldn't be a debate at all", cause that's how great she is.
Exactly!
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post #125 of 572 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2012, 08:35 PM
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Not sure I agree w.that. 1999 was a special and memorable year for Steffi, considering her time off with injuries and the new cast of characters she had to deal with. She beat the number 1,2, and 3 players in the world at one slam, got her ranking up to 3, made the last two slam finals she played- and w.out in a blaze of glory (I'm not counting her actual last tournament). Maybe it's not her highest ranking re: achievements, but one the all time highest re: sentiment and heart- and that's what it's all about!

I will agree that to some extent Graf is underrated, but I think for the most part she gets her proper respect- considering this forum anyway. But I do fully agree that the youngster on this board that have never seen Steffi at work do themselves a disservice adding commentary that has no basis in truth. Steffi's awesomeness won't ever be truly conveyed to them the way it was to those that witnessed it firsthand!

I think both of their matches in 1999 are very telling. On one hand u have a player not what she once was and another player not yet what she will be. As a fan of tennis it was perfect for me. I had a hard time dealing w.Steffi's retirement and Serena helped with that. I saw it as a passing of the torch. And I feel like being a Steffi/Serena fanatic is the best possible combo from one generation to the other. I'm a lucky dude.
Oh, I don't deny that 1999 has a special place in Graf's heart, and I'm sure it does have more sentimental value than a lot of her more successful seasons. But still, she was clearly a shadow of her very best that year (but, even as a shadow of her best, still managed to re-establish herself as one of the best in the world), and I think it's pretty much indisputable that Serena was closer to her peak form that year than Steffi was - yet Steffi still battled her to a tie in the 2 matches they played that year.

Even though (to state the obvious) I'm not a Serena fan, I certainly would've loved to have seen what would've happened if they'd peaked at the exact same time. My suspicion is that Graf would've completely dominated their matches on both clay and grass (yes, grass- even leaving aside the best parts of Steffi's game, Serena would've been at a loss to handle Steffi's slice backhand on the skidding 90s grass, when you consider that at her very best she was given worlds of trouble by Emilie Loit's comparitively mediocre slice at the AO03 on high-bouncing Rebound Ace), and Serena would've maybe slightly edged their head-to-head on hardcourts. In terms of who won Slams, NEITHER Serena or Steffi would've won as many slams as they have purely because they would've been competing against eachother, but there's no doubt in my mind atall that Steffi would've ended up with considerably more Slams than Serena, because she was not only slightly more dominant than Serena at her peak but was also FAR more driven and consistent from year to year, tournament to tournament, even though she had even more serious injuries than Serena's had.
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post #126 of 572 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2012, 08:40 PM
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Serena 2002 struggled against Callens & Barina. I'm failing to see a point here.
What exactly is your point? All you're proving here is that, while Serena's 2002 was fantastic, it isn't in the same league as the all-time great seasons, including Graf's 1988, where she didn't even lose a SET to anyone outside the top 20, nevermind some of the scrubs Serena was getting pushed to the brink by.

So just to get things straight here, Steffi at her peak was more dominant over her peers than Serena at her peak by any measure, AND Steffi won a lot more Slams than Serena in a shorter career. The only argument people are reduced to to try and say Serena is greater than Graf is that the statistics don't matter because of the vague notion that "the game improves with every generation".... which, if that was the case, then Azarenka or Kvitova or whoever is the best player of the new generation would be automatically better than Serena.... and I don't think even the most ardent Serena-haters would claim that.

Outside of the as-ever-nauseatingly-biased American media, Serena's going to have to get to something like 26 Slams (including atleast 2 more RGs) to be considered greater than Steffi, to make up for the huge deficits in every other category.
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post #127 of 572 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2012, 09:01 PM
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Oh, I don't deny that 1999 has a special place in Graf's heart, and I'm sure it does have more sentimental value than a lot of her more successful seasons. But still, she was clearly a shadow of her very best that year (but, even as a shadow of her best, still managed to re-establish herself as one of the best in the world), and I think it's pretty much indisputable that Serena was closer to her peak form that year than Steffi was - yet Steffi still battled her to a tie in the 2 matches they played that year.

Even though (to state the obvious) I'm not a Serena fan, I certainly would've loved to have seen what would've happened if they'd peaked at the exact same time. My suspicion is that Graf would've completely dominated their matches on both clay and grass (yes, grass- even leaving aside the best parts of Steffi's game, Serena would've been at a loss to handle Steffi's slice backhand on the skidding 90s grass, when you consider that at her very best she was given worlds of trouble by Emilie Loit's comparitively mediocre slice at the AO03 on high-bouncing Rebound Ace), and Serena would've maybe slightly edged their head-to-head on hardcourts. In terms of who won Slams, NEITHER Serena or Steffi would've won as many slams as they have purely because they would've been competing against eachother, but there's no doubt in my mind atall that Steffi would've ended up with considerably more Slams than Serena, because she was not only slightly more dominant than Serena at her peak but was also FAR more driven and consistent from year to year, tournament to tournament, even though she had even more serious injuries than Serena's had.



Graf didn't have more serious injuries than Serena. Well let me rephrase that, she didn't have as many inopportune injuries as Serena did. Serena got her career threatening injuries when she was the dominant player and No.1 in the world. 2003, she had won 5 of the last 6 slams, then after the knee surgery took her almost 2 years to win another with a year long lay off, and movement was grossly affected. 2010, won 5 of the last 8 slams, a foot injury having nothing to do with tennis, surgery, and then she's out for another year, making it another 2 years before winning a slam. Not comparable. Could you imagine Graf having a knee operation in 1989, or 1993? It would've taken her months to recover. Graf did eventually have knee surgery, but it was at the end of her career. Not to say it didn't affect her and her game, because it did, but it's one thing to have these unfortunate health problems at the end of your career than it is when you're the dominant No.1 with no plans of stopping in the foreseeable future.


And, nobody in the history of women's tennis can touch Serena if she serves on grass like she's done this year. Although, she had tight matches with Zheng and Shvedova at Wimbledon, she took care of her serve. And once she broke, the set was over.
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post #128 of 572 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2012, 09:07 PM
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
What exactly is your point? All you're proving here is that, while Serena's 2002 was fantastic, it isn't in the same league as the all-time great seasons, including Graf's 1988, where she didn't even lose a SET to anyone outside the top 20, nevermind some of the scrubs Serena was getting pushed to the brink by.

So just to get things straight here, Steffi at her peak was more dominant over her peers than Serena at her peak by any measure, AND Steffi won a lot more Slams than Serena in a shorter career. The only argument people are reduced to to try and say Serena is greater than Graf is that the statistics don't matter because of the vague notion that "the game improves with every generation".... which, if that was the case, then Azarenka or Kvitova or whoever is the best player of the new generation would be automatically better than Serena.... and I don't think even the most ardent Serena-haters would claim that.

Outside of the as-ever-nauseatingly-biased American media, Serena's going to have to get to something like 26 Slams (including atleast 2 more RGs) to be considered greater than Steffi, to make up for the huge deficits in every other category.


Graf played from 1986-1997 with no major injuries. Serious injuries, sure, but nothing keeping her away from the game for years at a time. Those are the facts. Serena didn't have that luxury. Her career was halted during multiple injuries and surgeries.

Again, Graf had back and foot problems throughout her career but they were nagging injuries that didn't force her out of the game which is why she was able to play top level tennis for 10 years straight. As soon as Serena gets a momentum swing, it's usurped by some injury or surgery coming out of nowhere. There careers really aren't comparable. Graf also played a hell of a lot more than Serena. Graf ended at nearly 400 more matches played than Serena has now.

There's no way Serena is going to play more than about 10-12 tournaments a year so if you're looking her to break records, it's not going to happen. Graf regularly played 15+ tournaments a year week in and week out.
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post #129 of 572 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2012, 09:09 PM
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Anabelcroft View Post
That's why she is voted the greatest all time player on almost every poll
Yeah, I don't get the scope of the thread because she isn't overlooked at all.
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post #130 of 572 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2012, 09:18 PM
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Yeah, I don't get the scope of the thread because she isn't overlooked at all.
The scope of this thread is that by proclaiming something which is not the obvious truth,Sweety Darling wanted people to take his/her words for granted and to start looking at Graf like she has already been overlooked which might change the general opinion about her greatest all time legacy...

But,unfortunately for the starter,this is just a failed thread mission as the polls show what general opinion is,either on this board or outside of it!
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post #131 of 572 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2012, 09:29 PM
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
What exactly is your point? All you're proving here is that, while Serena's 2002 was fantastic, it isn't in the same league as the all-time great seasons, including Graf's 1988, where she didn't even lose a SET to anyone outside the top 20, nevermind some of the scrubs Serena was getting pushed to the brink by.

So just to get things straight here, Steffi at her peak was more dominant over her peers than Serena at her peak by any measure, AND Steffi won a lot more Slams than Serena in a shorter career. The only argument people are reduced to to try and say Serena is greater than Graf is that the statistics don't matter because of the vague notion that "the game improves with every generation".... which, if that was the case, then Azarenka or Kvitova or whoever is the best player of the new generation would be automatically better than Serena.... and I don't think even the most ardent Serena-haters would claim that.

Outside of the as-ever-nauseatingly-biased American media, Serena's going to have to get to something like 26 Slams (including atleast 2 more RGs) to be considered greater than Steffi, to make up for the huge deficits in every other category.
That's my point, Serena has produced a quality of tennis far superior to Graf's, a tennis quality that transcends eras, technology & popularity.

I'm guessing Serena would have ended 1988 in a similar fashion to Graf had her rivals been a couple of +30 year old & some juniors too.

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post #132 of 572 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2012, 09:37 PM
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Matías. View Post
That's my point, Serena has produced a quality of tennis far superior to Graf's, a tennis quality that transcends eras, technology & popularity.
Then why did she not produce the same quality of Graf's results at her peak? Why did she struggle far more against scrubs than Graf did? Why did she not beat her fellow top players as emphatically as Graf did?

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I'm guessing Serena would have ended 1988 in a similar fashion to Graf had her rivals been a couple of +30 year old & some juniors too.
So who were Serena's big rivals in 2002? Davenport was injured all year. Hingis was done. Henin and Clijsters were having a sophomore slump after their breakthrough seasons. All there was was Venus and..... Capriati? I'm not seeing how that is significantly stronger than Steffi having to compete with Navratilova still playing very well, an Evert still playing moderately well, as well as players like Sabatini and Sukova.
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post #133 of 572 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2012, 09:38 PM
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by Matías. View Post
That's my point, Serena has produced a quality of tennis far superior to Graf's, a tennis quality that transcends eras, technology & popularity.

I'm guessing Serena would have ended 1988 in a similar fashion to Graf had her rivals been a couple of +30 year old & some juniors too.

One thing I want to point out is this myth Graf would've dominated Serena on clay and grass. An aging Navratilova, who doesn't have the ground strokes or even the serve of Serena, consistently beat and challenged Graf on every surface. She even beat her twice at the age of 35 and many of her losses, were in tight 3 setters with Graf

But, Graf's game and tennis is transcendent too, let's not fool ourselves.
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post #134 of 572 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2012, 09:40 PM
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Originally Posted by dsanders06 View Post
Then why did she not produce the same quality of Graf's results at her peak? Why did she struggle far more against scrubs than Graf did? Why did she not beat her fellow top players as emphatically as Graf did?



So who were Serena's big rivals in 2002? Davenport was injured all year. Hingis was done. Henin and Clijsters were having a sophomore slump after their breakthrough seasons. All there was was Venus and..... Capriati? I'm not seeing how that is significantly stronger than Steffi having to compete with Navratilova still playing very well, an Evert still playing moderately well, as well as players like Sabatini and Sukova.


Serena's peak has long passed her, 10 years ago, so what point are you making? You think anything since then has been her peak? Maybe close but no cigar.
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post #135 of 572 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2012, 09:47 PM
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Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

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Graf didn't have more serious injuries than Serena. Well let me rephrase that, she didn't have as many inopportune injuries as Serena did. Serena got her career threatening injuries when she was the dominant player and No.1 in the world. 2003, she had won 5 of the last 6 slams, then after the knee surgery took her almost 2 years to win another with a year long lay off, and movement was grossly affected. 2010, won 5 of the last 8 slams, a foot injury having nothing to do with tennis, surgery, and then she's out for another year, making it another 2 years before winning a slam. Not comparable. Could you imagine Graf having a knee operation in 1989, or 1993? It would've taken her months to recover. Graf did eventually have knee surgery, but it was at the end of her career. Not to say it didn't affect her and her game, because it did, but it's one thing to have these unfortunate health problems at the end of your career than it is when you're the dominant No.1 with no plans of stopping in the foreseeable future.
Just for a change, you're getting basic facts wrong. Graf's 1994 season was completely ruined by a back injury, after she had completely dominated 1993 (and by the way, this is another reason why the "Graf's career was made by Seles's stabbing" school of thought is silly - because Graf was too injured to take advantage for half of Seles's hiatus). And then, after her second period of utter dominance between 1995-96, she was wiped out completely by injury.


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And, nobody in the history of women's tennis can touch Serena if she serves on grass like she's done this year. Although, she had tight matches with Zheng and Shvedova at Wimbledon, she took care of her serve. And once she broke, the set was over.
Shvedova and Radwanska broke Serena's serve multiple times.....and Graf wouldn't be able to

Once again, Steffi handled Serena and Venus serving almost as well as Serena does now back in 1999, and she handled it just fine. And Steffi had a pretty considerable serve of her own, you know (again, this is another thing where people on here talk like the from the late 20th century all had Evert-type puffball serves, when in reality, Graf and Navratilova would regularly crack serves at over 100mph).

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Originally Posted by TheDream View Post
There's no way Serena is going to play more than about 10-12 tournaments a year so if you're looking her to break records, it's not going to happen. Graf regularly played 15+ tournaments a year week in and week out.
And similary, that's why Serena being considered better than Graf (by non-Americans) is similarly not going to happen. And by the way, Graf would usually only play 11-14 tournaments a year, which really isn't that much more than Serena atall - the reason she played so many more matches is just because she was better and would go deep in nearly every tournament she played - unlike Serena.
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