Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal - Page 27 - TennisForum.com
View Poll Results: Bigger gap on clay
Henin over Serena 117 49.37%
Nadal over Federer 120 50.63%
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post #391 of 472 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 2012, 10:16 AM
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by madmax View Post
this...clay competition in early pre-peak Henin 00's was simply pathetic on WTA tour. RG was up for grabs for anyone who hit a hot streak, just like now basically. Williams were just hot commodities at the time and managed to take advantage of it. End of


Pierce, Capriati & Serena winning is SLIGHTLY different to Schiavone and Na

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Agassi
"But every sport improves dramatically every three-to-five years, and I think we've see that in the sport of tennis. These guys just keep getting better and better. There's no comparison between what guys are doing now to 10 years ago"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Agassi
"Listen, I could sit here and tell you that I'm the best of the best, but unfortunately, the best get better. That's just how it is. Speed, athleticism, change in technology, and why people don't come to the net anymore because of the angles that are created. It's a whole different set of circumstances out there"
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post #392 of 472 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 2012, 10:17 AM
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
You can say and think whatever you want but Nadal is arguably the best player ever on clay and at his best none of his contemporaries stand a chance against him on clay.

You already admitted that Justine is more vulnerable on clay which means that on any given day she could lose a match that Nadal wouldn't. That already suggests that the gap between Nadal and Federer is greater than Justine and Serena. Why are you wasting my time when you already admitted you're wrong?
lol i did not admit i was wrong

-based on skill and accomplishment on clay,gap between federer and nadal much smaller than that of henin and serena
-all time greats list, gap between federer and nadal much smaller than that of henin and serena
-serena also never beat henin in french open like federer never beat nadal in french open
-federer at his peak able to bagel nadal on clay

still you have not provided me a statistic that proves your point except your own hypothesis that serena can somehow win against peak henin on clay when you have no statistic whatsoever that proves your point
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post #393 of 472 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 2012, 10:22 AM
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by nealcaffrey View Post
lol i did not admit i was wrong

-based on skill and accomplishment on clay,gap between federer and nadal much smaller than that of henin and serena
-all time greats list, gap between federer and nadal much smaller than that of henin and serena
-serena also never beat henin in french open like federer never beat nadal in french open
-federer at his peak able to bagel nadal on clay

still you have not provided me a statistic that proves your point except your own hypothesis that serena can somehow win against peak henin on clay when you have no statistic whatsoever that proves your point
Nadal 6 >>> Federer 1
Justine 4 >> Serena 1

Greater gap is Nadal and Federer. Simple maths. And before you bring in other players and other surfaces, this is between these four players on clay.

Why don't you show me a statistic instead of just throwing up meaningless words?

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post #394 of 472 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 2012, 10:36 AM
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
Nadal 6 >>> Federer 1
Justine 4 >> Serena 1

Greater gap is Nadal and Federer. Simple maths. And before you bring in other players and other surfaces, this is between these four players on clay.

Why don't you show me a statistic instead of just throwing up meaningless words?
ok, so you would also agree with this:

Nadal 6 >>> Federer 1
Justine 4 >> Myskina 1
or
Justine 4 >> Ivanovic 1
or
Justine 4 >> Schiavone 1
or
Justine 4 >> Li 1

gap between fed-nadal bigger than myskina-henin as example...

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post #395 of 472 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 2012, 10:37 AM
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
Nadal 6 >>> Federer 1
Justine 4 >> Serena 1

Greater gap is Nadal and Federer. Simple maths. And before you bring in other players and other surfaces, this is between these four players on clay.

Why don't you show me a statistic instead of just throwing up meaningless words?
lol by this logic you are saying that the gap between henin and ivanovic,myskina, na,schiavone, kuznetsova basically anyone who has won one french open slam is also narrower than that of federer and nadal

actually by this logic you are saying that the gap between henin and anyone who has not won any french open slams is still narrower than that of federer and nadal because 4-0 is still smaller than 6-1

yeah good stuff
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post #396 of 472 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 2012, 10:40 AM
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

You still haven't provided any statistics that prove your point.

You can't read. I already said not to bring other players. Isn't this thread about these four players?

Try again.

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post #397 of 472 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 2012, 11:20 AM
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
You still haven't provided any statistics that prove your point.

You can't read. I already said not to bring other players. Isn't this thread about these four players?

Try again.
if you use argument for one player it should be applicable for all who has the same statistics
lol so your stats proof only applicable for serena-justine but we will use different barometer for everyone else?

what are the statistics needed? federer is closer to nadal in accomplishments in french open (also other clay tournaments) than serena is to henin
6W, 6F >>>>>> 1W, 5F
4W, 4F >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1W, 1F
i can twist the stats on my favor too

try harder
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post #398 of 472 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 2012, 11:31 AM
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by nealcaffrey View Post
if you use argument for one player it should be applicable for all who has the same statistics
lol so your stats proof only applicable for serena-justine but we will use different barometer for everyone else?

what are the statistics needed? federer is closer to nadal in accomplishments in french open (also other clay tournaments) than serena is to henin
6W, 6F >>>>>> 1W, 5F
4W, 4F >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1W, 1F
i can twist the stats on my favor too

try harder
The fact that Roger reached more finals just prove that he's a better clay court player. It doesn't prove that the gap between him and Rafa is narrower.

You don't seem to get it. Just because there's no one between Roger and Rafa, that doesn't mean the gaps between them two are not that wide.

Just because Roger is the second best player of his generation on clay doesn't mean that the gap between first and second is narrower than between first and third or fourth on another tour.

It's the concept of relativity. You could have a bunch of five players who are all close in ability to each other and the gaps are narrow. But you could have another bunch of five players with a large gap between first and second and second and the rest.

You clearly cannot understand this concept.

---

Also, why look at finals when you have wins to judge? Winning is everything. All four are Grand Slam champions on clay and we are talking about their abilities and greatness against each other. It's appropriate to look at their slam count. That's the only thing that really matters.

The Grand Slam final count just proves that Roger is more effective than Serena in getting to French Open finals. NOT at winning them against Rafa and therefore doesn't close the gap AT ALL.

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Last edited by Sam L; Jun 6th, 2012 at 11:39 AM.
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post #399 of 472 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 2012, 11:44 AM
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

Yes, it's funny that people are incapable of reading the thread title

People seem to think it's a Serena vs Roger thread on clay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Agassi
"But every sport improves dramatically every three-to-five years, and I think we've see that in the sport of tennis. These guys just keep getting better and better. There's no comparison between what guys are doing now to 10 years ago"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Agassi
"Listen, I could sit here and tell you that I'm the best of the best, but unfortunately, the best get better. That's just how it is. Speed, athleticism, change in technology, and why people don't come to the net anymore because of the angles that are created. It's a whole different set of circumstances out there"
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post #400 of 472 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 2012, 11:54 AM
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
The fact that Roger reached more finals just prove that he's a better clay court player. It doesn't prove that the gap between him and Rafa is narrower.

You don't seem to get it. Just because there's no one between Roger and Rafa, that doesn't mean the gaps between them two are not that wide.

Just because Roger is the second best player of his generation on clay doesn't mean that the gap between first and second is narrower than between first and third or fourth on another tour.

It's the concept of relativity. You could have a bunch of five players who are all close in ability to each other and the gaps are narrow. But you could have another bunch of five players with a large gap between first and second and second and the rest.

You clearly cannot understand this concept.

---

Also, why look at finals when you have wins to judge? Winning is everything. All four are Grand Slam champions on clay and we are talking about their abilities and greatness against each other. It's appropriate to look at their slam count. That's the only thing that really matters.

The Grand Slam final count just proves that Roger is more effective than Serena in getting to French Open finals. NOT at winning them against Rafa and therefore doesn't close the gap AT ALL.
my post was not to say federer has greater achievements on clay than serena as it is already a given
my post only says federer is closer to nadal's achievements on clay than serena is to henin's achievements on clay
therefore the gap is closer
you cannot understand this because you are hung up on the fact federer cannot beat nadal
but the fact is serena also never beat henin on french open so i don't know why you keep on harping about that as if serena beat henin repeatedly and constantly on clay
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post #401 of 472 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 2012, 12:08 PM
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by nealcaffrey View Post
my post was not to say federer has greater achievements on clay than serena as it is already a given
my post only says federer is closer to nadal's achievements on clay than serena is to henin's achievements on clay
therefore the gap is closer
you cannot understand this because you are hung up on the fact federer cannot beat nadal
but the fact is serena also never beat henin on french open so i don't know why you keep on harping about that as if serena beat henin repeatedly and constantly on clay
Sorry to break this to you but it didn't prove that at all.

If Justine had 6 French Opens then I would agree. The fact that Rafa is leaps and bounds ahead of Roger 6-1 negates pretty much everything else.

Also, true Serena never Henin at French Open. But they played twice. Once in a semi and once in a quarter.

Roger never beat Rafa at French Open in the five attempts he had at him. Four finals and a semifinal.

If Player A plays 5 matches and loses them all against Player B and he loses two matches against Player C, who would you say that Player A has a no chance of beating the next time they play? Player B or Player C? It's simply looking at the sample of matches they have played.

Federer had a lot of cracks at Nadal, if he was able to beat him on clay and if the gaps between them were narrow(er) than Serena-Justine he should've have won at least one of them.

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post #402 of 472 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 2012, 12:23 PM
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

Quote:
Originally Posted by nealcaffrey View Post
my post only says federer is closer to nadal's achievements on clay than serena is to henin's
Serena winning % against Henin on clay: 20
Roger winning % against Nadal on clay: 14

As for the argument that Serena and Justine didn't meet enough at RG, they have been in the same RG draw 6 times:

2001 - Justine SF, Serena QF
2002 - Justine 1R, Serena W
2003 - Justine W, Serena SF
2004 - Justine 2R, Serena QF
2007 - Justine W, Serena QF
2010 - Justine 4R, Serena QF

Serena performed better than Justine in 50% of the RGs which included them both in the draw, Roger has only performed better than Nadal once (14%), where Nadal was injured and probably wouldn't have played had he not been the 4 time defending champion.

Nadal - Federer gap is much, much, much, much ^200 bigger, but that is due to Nadal being immortal on the surface.

As for playing ability, Peak v Peak, a Federer fan would have to pray for a miracle for him to take a set off Nadal on clay, never mind 3.

Peak Serena vs Peak Henin would not be such an easily predetermined result. In fact, one could say this match already occurred at the 2003 French Open (2007 Justine was arguably better by a hair but these two years are undoubtedly her best on tour), in which Serena was in a winning position in the 3rd before the drama started.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Agassi
"But every sport improves dramatically every three-to-five years, and I think we've see that in the sport of tennis. These guys just keep getting better and better. There's no comparison between what guys are doing now to 10 years ago"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Agassi
"Listen, I could sit here and tell you that I'm the best of the best, but unfortunately, the best get better. That's just how it is. Speed, athleticism, change in technology, and why people don't come to the net anymore because of the angles that are created. It's a whole different set of circumstances out there"
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post #403 of 472 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 2012, 12:27 PM
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
Also, true Serena never Henin at French Open. But they played twice. Once in a semi and once in a quarter.

Roger never beat Rafa at French Open in the five attempts he had at him. Four finals and a semifinal.
and now guess what's the reason serena only played twice henin at the french, while roger played nadal 5 times...

btw: according to your logic, serena has a better chance to beat her sister, clijsters or stosur than sybille bammer...

or venus has a better chance to beat her sister than pironkova...
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post #404 of 472 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 2012, 12:46 PM
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

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Originally Posted by J4m3ka View Post
Serena winning % against Henin on clay: 20
Roger winning % against Nadal on clay: 14

As for the argument that Serena and Justine didn't meet enough at RG, they have been in the same RG draw 6 times:

2001 - Justine SF, Serena QF
2002 - Justine 1R, Serena W
2003 - Justine W, Serena SF
2004 - Justine 2R, Serena QF
2007 - Justine W, Serena QF
2010 - Justine 4R, Serena QF

Serena performed better than Justine in 50% of the RGs which included them both in the draw, Roger has only performed better than Nadal once (14%), where Nadal was injured and probably wouldn't have played had he not been the 4 time defending champion.

Nadal - Federer gap is much, much, much, much ^200 bigger, but that is due to Nadal being immortal on the surface.

As for playing ability, Peak v Peak, a Federer fan would have to pray for a miracle for him to take a set off Nadal on clay, never mind 3.

Peak Serena vs Peak Henin would not be such an easily predetermined result. In fact, one could say this match already occurred at the 2003 French Open (2007 Justine was arguably better by a hair but these two years are undoubtedly her best on tour), in which Serena was in a winning position in the 3rd before the drama started.
Hmmmm...interesting. So it wasn't always Serena losing early.

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post #405 of 472 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 2012, 01:29 PM
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Re: Bigger gap on clay- Serena vs Henin or Federer vs Nadal

^^ Jameka's statistic is falsified by the fact that Justine started peaking in RG in 2004 and you're seriously not going to use 2010 as some kind of indicator. Was far from being Justine's best season on clay actually. The three consecutive times Justine won RG from 2005 to 2007, Serena only has one QF --

In Justine's dominance in RG, she was citing a whole lot of injuries before RG, left ankle in 2006, ankle and lack of fitness apparently in 2005. The one time they met in 2007, Serena just lost flat and straight.

Quote:
Peak Serena vs Peak Henin would not be such an easily predetermined result. In fact, one could say this match already occurred at the 2003 French Open (2007 Justine was arguably better by a hair but these two years are undoubtedly her best on tour), in which Serena was in a winning position in the 3rd before the drama started.
2007 Justine was far more superior to 2003. Serena took 4 and 3 in RG -- that's by a hair. There's no real argument that peak Justine would defeat any versions of peak/prime Serena on clay --

You use 2003 because it suits your argument and the match also went three but Rena tards always have a tendency to underrate 2007 because she was getting thumped left and right by Justine in a year where Serena had won the Australian Open hence was still in her prime. She just didn't have enough game with her one-dimensionality, it's as simple as that.

Roland-Garros also was the easiest win she had on Serena the whole year. 7 games, compared to the other majors where Serena at least made it even close. Hell, even on grass, Justine needed 3 sets to get past Serena -- I mean the gap between Serena and Justine on clay is quadruple the distance between us and the inhabitants of the planet Pluto.

Quote:
Pierce, Capriati & Serena winning is SLIGHTLY different to Schiavone and Na
Nice try but I'll tell it to you anyways, Serena's RG 2002 was a total fluke. First she beat her sister who was a total club-level amateur in that F missing shots while 5 centimeters away from the net.

Second most of the players she beat to make that final were extremely far from being potent on clay, bar Capriati in which it took her 3, Zvonareva et al. Pierce was hurt in 2001 and while 130th in the world still managed to make a QF in RG where Serena picked her apart with ease, 1 and 1. Venus showed couple years after that she was even much more of a fluke on clay, Serena's RG was as easy as it can be, even Victoria could have done the very same considering her better aptitudes than Serena on these slower surfaces.

Last in all, stop trying to make her RG relevant it's simply not. The last few years, she has not even backed up that W with at least another F even some consistent SF would have been good enough.

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Last edited by Vikapower; Jun 6th, 2012 at 01:35 PM.
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