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post #1 of 68 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2011, 05:20 PM Thread Starter
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Rank the 15 best hard court players since start of 1997

It seems the best surface of most of the women the last 15 years have been hard courts. So how would you rank the best 15 hard court players since the start of 1997. Here would be mine:

1. Serena Williams

----huge gap-----


2. Kim Clijsters
3. Martina Hingis
4. Justine Henin
5. Lindsay Davenport
6. Maria Sharapova
7. Venus Williams (would put higher but she didnt win the Australian unfortunately)
8. Jennifer Capriati (no U.S Open final)
9. Amelie Mauresmo

-----enormous gap-----

10. Svetlana Kuznetsova
11. Elena Dementieva
12. Monica Seles
13. Sam Stosur
14. Caroline Wozniacki
15. Jelena Jankovic



Graf and Seles obviously arent high since they didnt win a major hard cour title in this span, although Seles won a good number of decent tournaments. I ranked Elena over her since she won Olympic Gold and reached a U.S Open final in that span. Stosur made the list only because of her U.S Open title, beating Serena in the final.
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post #2 of 68 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2011, 05:26 PM
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Re: Rank the 15 best hard court players since start of 1997

On achievements or level of play? Hingis is not a better hardcourt player then justine looking at level of play.

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post #3 of 68 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2011, 05:27 PM
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Re: Rank the 15 best hard court players since start of 1997

3-7 are all interchangeable IMO
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post #4 of 68 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2011, 05:28 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Rank the 15 best hard court players since start of 1997

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Originally Posted by DragonFlame View Post
On achievements or level of play? Hingis is not a better hardcourt player then justine looking at level of play.
It depends on your own criteria.

I agree with you about level of play but with 6 straight Australian Open finals, 3 straight Australian Open titles, a U.S Open title, titles in Miami, and two titles at the WTA Championships like Henin (I dont even remember which years they were on hard courts and which they were on carpet anymore), her achievements force me to rank her above Henin.

I think Henin, Davenport, and Venus at their best on hard courts would most times be too much for Hingis though. Harder to say with Sharapova as they arent even from the same era really.
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post #5 of 68 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2011, 05:29 PM
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Re: Rank the 15 best hard court players since start of 1997

WTF is there an "enormous gap" between Kuznetsova/Dementieva and Mauresmo?

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post #6 of 68 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2011, 05:35 PM
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Re: Rank the 15 best hard court players since start of 1997

Notable exclusions: Pierce (Australian and US finalist during this period plus a YEC finals), Myskina (no real accomplishment on hard but very good on the surface anyway), Zvonareva (similar accomplishments to Wozniacki in terms of significant events)...

Wozniacki, Stosur and Jankovic are terrible options really...Stosur has done NOTHING on hard except win the Open.

The Dementieva, Kuznetsova and Mauresmo conversation is interesting, because if I had to bet on it, more often than not I think Dementieva would win against both of them, but she's the one who struggled to take her career to that slam winning level. In fact, Dementieva, based on skill alone, is not worse than say Sharapova or Capriati.

My rankings
Serena
Kim
Justine
Lindsay
Martina
Venus
Maria
Jennifer
Dementieva
Mauresmo
Kuznetsova
Pierce
Seles
Zvonareva
Jankovic

Last edited by shap_half; Oct 26th, 2011 at 08:42 PM.
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post #7 of 68 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2011, 05:40 PM
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Re: Rank the 15 best hard court players since start of 1997

Mauresmo won Montreal twice, AO W, A F, Olympics silver, two USO SF. Is indoor hard or carpet or just indoors included in this at all?

Kuznetsova has Miami W, USO W, USO F, Beijing W, Dubai F, 2 IW F...it's close, actually. One win and one final each at a major hardcourt, but Mauresmo made SF multiple times at USO where Kuznetsova never made a single AO SF. But Kuznetsova has three additional TI hardcourt Fs (equal or better or not as good as Mauresmo's Olympics F?) and I think overall was more consistent or better than Mauresmo in TI HC events.

Dementieva made USO F, 3 USO SF and 1 AO SF. Olympic gold, silver, title in Canada, finals in Miami/Indian Wells/Tokyo (when it was outdoors). Order is right, though.

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post #8 of 68 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2011, 05:40 PM
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Re: Rank the 15 best hard court players since start of 1997

Serena
Venus
Justine
Kim
Lindsay
Martina

There are no others.

Zverev Venus Nadal Murray
Goffin Zverev
Zverev Rublev Fritz Coric
Thiem Zverev
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post #9 of 68 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2011, 05:41 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Rank the 15 best hard court players since start of 1997

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Originally Posted by skanky~skanketta View Post
WTF is there an "enormous gap" between Kuznetsova/Dementieva and Mauresmo?
Mauresmo has beaten Clijsters, Henin, Capriati, Serena, Davenport, all in hard court slams. Clijsters, Henin, Capriati, Davenport, were all at the very top of the game at the time, although Serena was in her worst year ever. Kuznetsova has beaten Davenport, Henin, Pierce in slams, and that was an injured Davenport, Henin in her final ever event, and Pierce in a huge slump and ranked very low. Mauresmo in hard court slams has 1 title, 1 runner up, 2 semis. Kuznetsova has 1 title, 1 runner up, and no very strong results at the Australian Open. Mauresmo has also won a WTA Championships and been runner up in one on hard courts. She has beaten the likes of Henin, Clijsters , Sharapova, Pierce, and others at the event, some more than once. Kuznetsova has no success at the WTA Championships, and only 1 tier title of any kind on hard courts. Mauresmo in addition to her WTA Championship title has 2 other hard court tier 1s, in addition to another tier 1 title on carpet (ok carpet is another surface but closest to hard court). Dementieva meanwhile doesnt even have a hard court slam, only one final, and also little success at the WTA Championships. All she has compared to Mauresmo is the Olympic singles Gold (vs silver for Mauresmo).

Yes Mauresmo is definitely far above Kuznetsova or Dementieva on hard courts IMO (feel free to make your own list if you disagree though).

Come to think of it though Maursemo is probably in her own category. She is clearly behind 3-7 and even probably Capriati, while well ahead of Kuznetsova or Dementieva.
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post #10 of 68 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2011, 05:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Rank the 15 best hard court players since start of 1997

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Originally Posted by shap_half View Post
Wozniacki over Zvonerava or Myskina? No, thanks.
Well in achievements she clearly is. In terms of level of play I agree she isnt, but I knew I would get flamed if I didnt include Wozniacki with all her tier 1 and tier 2 titles on the surface (and a number of good slam results already).

Myskina really didnt achieve nearly as much as she could have on hard courts.
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post #11 of 68 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2011, 08:41 PM
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Re: Rank the 15 best hard court players since start of 1997

Quote:
Originally Posted by justineheninfan View Post
Yes Mauresmo is definitely far above Kuznetsova or Dementieva on hard courts IMO (feel free to make your own list if you disagree though).
Far above by what criteria? By achievements she is probably far above Dementieva, but not really that far above Kuznetsova. I'd be curious to hear your take if this were measured by skill, because outside Mauresmo's AO win (where a handful of people she played against pretty much retired midway through the match), I can't recall many significant career highlights where she showcased her amazing hard court game.
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post #12 of 68 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2011, 08:43 PM
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Re: Rank the 15 best hard court players since start of 1997

Its obviously Melanie Oudin...are you people dumb or stupid!?

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post #13 of 68 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2011, 08:47 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Rank the 15 best hard court players since start of 1997

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Originally Posted by shap_half View Post
Far above by what criteria? By achievements she is probably far above Dementieva, but not really that far above Kuznetsova. I'd be curious to hear your take if this were measured by skill, because outside Mauresmo's AO win (where a handful of people she played against pretty much retired midway through the match), I can't recall many significant career highlights where she showcased her amazing hard court game.
Actually I just broke down their achievements in detail. In terms of achievements Mauresmo is far ahead of Kuznetsova on hard courts. The only area they are equal is both having 1 hard court slam.

As for skill Kuznetsova's lack of ability to beat the best players hardly ever, esepcialy in Slams (amazing she could win 2 slams and make 2 other finals with so few impressive wins) or in regular tournament finals says it all. Except for Serena and Davenport, Mauresmo beat all the top players of her era quite often.
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post #14 of 68 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2011, 08:53 PM
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Re: Rank the 15 best hard court players since start of 1997

Clijsters is so strong on hardcourts, despite she trails Hingis in the # GS Finals on hardcourts Category, she outnumber her by a lot in the number of titles.

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18 Grand Slam SF´s, Won 27 titles, 1 GS Sin, 1 GS in Dubs,2 Masters
Sabatini vs Martinez ?
Seasons in the top ten: Sabatini 10 Conchita 9
Straight Seasons in the top ten: Sabatini 10 Conchita 6
Seasons in the top 5: Sabatini 6 Conchita 5
Straight seasons in the top 5: Sabatini 6 Conchita 4
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Sabatini 24 Martinez 17
Record at the Masters
Sabatini has 2 titles 2 Runner up and 3 SF
Martinez has 0 titles, 0 RU, and 0 Sf
Record against the best players
Sabatini 40% Martinez 21%
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FWTT Hard 111(111 + ny)Carpet 104(104 + ny)Clay 107(107 + 4) Grass 100(100 ny)
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post #15 of 68 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2011, 09:02 PM
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Re: Rank the 15 best hard court players since start of 1997

Quote:
Originally Posted by justineheninfan View Post
Actually I just broke down their achievements in detail. In terms of achievements Mauresmo is far ahead of Kuznetsova on hard courts. The only area they are equal is both having 1 hard court slam.

As for skill Kuznetsova's lack of ability to beat the best players hardly ever, esepcialy in Slams (amazing she could win 2 slams and make 2 other finals with so few impressive wins) or in regular tournament finals says it all. Except for Serena and Davenport, Mauresmo beat all the top players of her era quite often.
Obviously stats point to Mauresmo, but I've never been convinced that she's that big a threat on the surface. For example, no USO final. She and Capriati are the only people on your list to not make the USO final. I suppose there's really nothing concrete that will make the case for Dementieva, who I think is a fantastic hardcourt player, and at her best is better than players who have won a couple of hard court slams.
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