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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old Jul 5th, 2011, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
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Smile *JR* rankings

This is another WTA rankings experiment - the *JR* rankings with double-up points, a spin-off of the Marlene rankings® with time-factors.

The WTA-points have been replaced with "double-up" points; here's what the new point scale looks like for slams:

WTA: R128: 5 -- R64: 100 -- R32: 160 -- R16: 280 -- QF: 500 -- SF: 900 -- F: 1400 -- W: 2000
DUP: R128: 4 -- R64: 32 --- R32: 64 --- R16: 128 -- QF: 256 -- SF: 512 -- F: 1024 -- W: 2048


The double-up'ing begins with the first win, and 32 pts is the "base" for Slams. A first round loss prompts a symbolic 1/8 of the base pts (mainly because I use 0 pts to keep track of players who didn't participate but should've). There is a similar double-up system for the qualification rounds; completing the qualification gives 3/4 of the base pts (i.e. 24 pt in Slam-qualies - I chose this fraction because it sorta fits with the WTA system).

ETA: After the WTA-points have been replaced with "double-up" points, the lists are sorted after the usual WTA criteria. 1st rnd BYEs followed by a win is counted as a win; a 1st rnd BYE and a 2nd round loss equals a 1st rnd loss.

For non-Slam events, the base pts are determined by the draw size (relative to the slam draws). I figured this was the way to go because it's logical rather than subjective and it's in the same spirit as the double-up points system. So, for Indian Wells and Miami which have 96M/64q draws (or 128M depending on how you look at it) I use a 24 pts base:

WTA: R128: 5 -- R64: 50 -- R32: 80 -- R16: 140 -- QF: 250 -- SF: 450 -- F: 700 -- W: 1000
DUP: R128: 3 -- R64: 24 -- R32: 48 -- R16: 96 --- QF: 192 -- SF: 384 -- F: 768 -- W: 1536



The 64M/64q draws (Cincinnati, Montreal/Toronto) get a 18 pts base which means 576 pts for the winner and 288 pts for the finalist. 64M/32q draws (Beijing, Birmingham, Charleston, Dubai, Madrid, Rome, Tokyo) get a 16 pts base; that's 512 pts for the winner. I haven't made a distinction between PRE, PRE-5 and MAN events at this point, but it's doable. Tournaments like Auckland, Båstad, Copenhagen, Doha, Eastbourne and a whole lotta others have 32M/32q draws; they get a 11 pts base. And so on. ITF tournaments get half of what a similar WTA event would get, i.e. an 32M/32q ITF event gets 5.5 pts. For the YEC and Bali I've picked a pts base that results in something not too different from the WTA points.

Enough talk; here is the inaugural *JR* ranking list:


Code:
20110704
NEW (wta)  Player           *JR* PTS    (wta pts)   (jr/wta)
1    (1)    Wozniacki         6644       (9915)      0.670 
2    (2)    Clijsters         6573       (7625)      0.862 
3    (4)    Azarenka          4010       (6465)      0.620 
4    (6)    Li                3916       (5855)      0.668 
5    (5)    Sharapova         3904       (6141)      0.635 
6    (7)    Kvitova           3610       (5437)      0.664 
7    (3)    Zvonareva         3604       (6695)      0.538 
8    (8)    Schiavone         2450       (4860)      0.504 
9    (9)    Bartoli           2286       (4230)      0.540 
10   (11)   Petkovic          1614       (3305)      0.488 
11   (18)   Ivanovic          1522       (2555)      0.595 
12   (10)   Stosur            1402       (3405)      0.411 
13   (13)   Pavlyuchenkova    1372       (2995)      0.458 
14   (12)   Kuznetsova        1324       (3220)      0.411 
15   (27)   Lisicki           1288       (1886)      0.682 
16   (17)   Peng              1248       (2580)      0.483 
17   (19)   Wickmayer         1163       (2470)      0.470 
18   (14)   Radwanska         1152       (2995)      0.384 
19   (15)   Jankovic          1128       (2775)      0.406 
20   (16)   Goerges           1117       (2715)      0.411 
21   (22)   Hantuchova        1027       (2195)      0.467 
22   (20)   Cibulkova         971        (2455)      0.395 
23   (25)   Vinci             816        (1985)      0.411 
24   (28)   Kleybanova        795        (1845)      0.430 
25   (26)   Kanepi            788        (1911)      0.412
Comments: It's very close between Wozniacki and Clijsters, and it's basically the YEC points that tip the scale - if I up the YEC points a little bit (so that the difference between finalist and winner increases) then Clijsters sneaks ahead. But, NB; Clijsters was ahead of Wozniacki until Wimbledon.

Lisicki makes a big jump up the list (from #27 to #15) thanks to her Birmingham (W) and Wimbledon (SF) points. In the WTA system she's ranked alongside the usual winning-a-couple-of-matches-at-each-tournament type of players but in the double-up system her points are "bigger". It's the same story with Ivanovic (from #18 to #11) because her two tournament wins are rewarded in the double-up rankings.

For Radwanska it's the opposite - she wins 3-4 matches at each tournament (a good average) but she never goes all the way. Therefore she doesn't score as many double-up points as WTA points, and she drops from #14 to #18. Jankovic; same thing.


So, what do you think? Comments and suggestions are welcome, i.e. if you think Charleston should have a 15 pts base instead of 16 or something.

Last edited by Marlene; Jul 6th, 2011 at 12:41 AM.
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old Jul 5th, 2011, 10:51 PM
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Re: *JR* rankings

Hantuchova above Cibulkova in this one?...I approve!

But LOLOLOLOLOL @ Ivanovic at 11...you can not be serious
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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old Jul 5th, 2011, 10:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: *JR* rankings

More *JR* ranking lists:

Code:
20110606
NEW (wta)  Player           *JR* PTS    (wta pts)   (jr/wta)
1    (2)    Clijsters         6842       (8215)      0.832 
2    (1)    Wozniacki         6644       (9915)      0.670 
3    (4)    Li                4641       (6475)      0.716 
4    (3)    Zvonareva         4564       (7935)      0.575 
5    (5)    Azarenka          3618       (5920)      0.611 
6    (6)    Sharapova         3264       (5221)      0.625 
7    (7)    Schiavone         2380       (4646)      0.512 
8    (25)   SerenaWilliams    2048       (2000)      1.024 
9    (9)    Bartoli           2026       (3740)      0.541 
10   (8)    Kvitova           1987       (4018)      0.494 
11   (11)   Petkovic          1608       (3280)      0.490 
12   (14)   Pavlyuchenkova    1404       (3055)      0.459 
13   (10)   Stosur            1402       (3405)      0.411 
14   (19)   Ivanovic          1345       (2330)      0.577 
15   (12)   Kuznetsova        1296       (3210)      0.403 
16   (15)   Jankovic          1252       (3050)      0.410 
17   (13)   Radwanska         1227       (3056)      0.401 
18   (17)   Kanepi            1132       (2545)      0.445 
19   (18)   Wickmayer         1099       (2350)      0.467 
20   (16)   Goerges           1057       (2560)      0.412 
21   (20)   Peng              1010       (2240)      0.451 
22   (24)   Kleybanova        859        (2005)      0.428 
23   (27)   Gajdosova         846        (1940)      0.436 
24   (32)   VenusWilliams     832        (1560)      0.533 
25   (22)   Peer              792        (2170)      0.364
Code:
20110613
NEW (wta)  Player           *JR* PTS    (wta pts)   (jr/wta)
1    (2)    Clijsters         6842       (8215)      0.832 
2    (1)    Wozniacki         6644       (9915)      0.670 
3    (3)    Zvonareva         4564       (7935)      0.575 
4    (4)    Li                4130       (6196)      0.666 
5    (5)    Azarenka          3618       (5920)      0.611 
6    (6)    Sharapova         3008       (5021)      0.599 
7    (7)    Schiavone         2380       (4646)      0.512 
8    (26)   SerenaWilliams    2048       (2000)      1.024 
9    (9)    Bartoli           2026       (3740)      0.541 
10   (8)    Kvitova           1987       (4018)      0.494 
11   (11)   Petkovic          1608       (3280)      0.490 
12   (18)   Ivanovic          1462       (2400)      0.609 
13   (14)   Pavlyuchenkova    1404       (3055)      0.459 
14   (10)   Stosur            1402       (3405)      0.411 
15   (12)   Kuznetsova        1296       (3210)      0.403 
16   (15)   Jankovic          1252       (3050)      0.410 
17   (13)   Radwanska         1227       (3056)      0.401 
18   (20)   Peng              1120       (2300)      0.487 
19   (19)   Wickmayer         1099       (2350)      0.467 
20   (17)   Kanepi            1064       (2466)      0.431 
21   (16)   Goerges           1057       (2560)      0.412 
22   (24)   Hantuchova        967        (2005)      0.482 
23   (25)   Kleybanova        859        (2005)      0.428 
24   (28)   Gajdosova         846        (1940)      0.436 
25   (33)   VenusWilliams     832        (1560)      0.533
Code:
20110620
NEW (wta)  Player           *JR* PTS    (wta pts)   (jr/wta)
1    (2)    Clijsters         6829       (8125)      0.840 
2    (1)    Wozniacki         6644       (9915)      0.670 
3    (3)    Zvonareva         4564       (7935)      0.575 
4    (4)    Li                4140       (6255)      0.661 
5    (5)    Azarenka          3562       (5725)      0.622 
6    (6)    Sharapova         3008       (5021)      0.599 
7    (7)    Schiavone         2390       (4705)      0.507 
8    (9)    Bartoli           2158       (4010)      0.538 
9    (8)    Kvitova           2074       (4337)      0.478 
10   (25)   SerenaWilliams    2059       (2060)      0.999 
11   (13)   Petkovic          1554       (3150)      0.493 
12   (18)   Ivanovic          1462       (2400)      0.609 
13   (14)   Pavlyuchenkova    1404       (3055)      0.459 
14   (10)   Stosur            1402       (3405)      0.411 
15   (12)   Kuznetsova        1292       (3160)      0.408 
16   (15)   Jankovic          1252       (3050)      0.410 
17   (11)   Radwanska         1248       (3175)      0.393 
18   (20)   Peng              1120       (2300)      0.487 
19   (19)   Wickmayer         1099       (2350)      0.467 
20   (17)   Kanepi            1064       (2466)      0.431 
21   (16)   Goerges           1057       (2560)      0.412 
22   (23)   Hantuchova        995        (2135)      0.466 
23   (26)   Kleybanova        859        (2005)      0.428 
24   (30)   VenusWilliams     854        (1680)      0.508 
25   (28)   Gajdosova         846        (1940)      0.436
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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old Jul 5th, 2011, 10:55 PM Thread Starter
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Re: *JR* rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anotoxfa View Post
But LOLOLOLOLOL @ Ivanovic at 11...you can not be serious
Don't blame me - it's Kleybanova's fault for not beating her at Bali!
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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old Jul 5th, 2011, 11:23 PM Thread Starter
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Re: *JR* rankings

More *JR* ranking lists:

Code:
20100830 - before US Open
NEW (wta)  Player           *JR* PTS    (wta pts)   (new/wta)
1    (1)    SerenaWilliams    4624       (5355)      0.863 
2    (2)    Wozniacki         2842       (4715)      0.602 
3    (5)    Jankovic          2825       (3873)      0.729 
4    (8)    Clijsters         2761       (3295)      0.837 
5    (7)    Schiavone         2657       (3452)      0.769 
6    (4)    Stosur            2531       (4067)      0.622 
7    (3)    VenusWilliams     2416       (4085)      0.591 
8    (6)    Zvonareva         2196       (3773)      0.582 
9    (10)   Li                1675       (3086)      0.542 
10   (9)    Azarenka          1241       (3096)      0.400 
11   (11)   Radwanska         1206       (2731)      0.441 
12   (17)   Sharapova         1198       (2230)      0.537 
13   (13)   Rezai             1193       (2515)      0.474 
14   (14)   Petrova           1035       (2429)      0.426 
15   (16)   Bartoli           1020       (2288)      0.446 
16   (19)   Zheng             993        (2128)      0.466 
17   (20)   Wickmayer         967        (2003)      0.483 
18   (18)   Pavlyuchenkova    959        (2178)      0.440 
19   (12)   Peer              923        (2685)      0.343 
20   (15)   Pennetta          915        (2390)      0.382 
21   (24)   Kanepi            884        (1716)      0.515 
22   (25)   MartinezSanchez   853        (1676)      0.509 
23   (21)   Kirilenko         765        (1980)      0.386 
24   (22)   Kuznetsova        728        (1867)      0.390 
25   (28)   Pironkova         716        (1497)      0.478
Code:
20100913 - after US Open
NEW (wta)  Player           *JR* PTS    (wta pts)   (new/wta)
1    (3)    Clijsters         4809       (5295)      0.908 
2    (2)    SerenaWilliams    4624       (5355)      0.863 
3    (1)    Wozniacki         3354       (5615)      0.597 
4    (4)    Zvonareva         3220       (5173)      0.622 
5    (5)    VenusWilliams     2928       (4985)      0.587 
6    (8)    Schiavone         2913       (3952)      0.737 
7    (7)    Jankovic          2889       (4033)      0.716 
8    (6)    Stosur            2787       (4567)      0.610 
9    (10)   Li                1679       (3091)      0.543 
10   (15)   Sharapova         1326       (2510)      0.528 
11   (9)    Azarenka          1273       (3196)      0.398 
12   (12)   Radwanska         1238       (2831)      0.437 
13   (13)   Rezai             1225       (2615)      0.468 
14   (21)   Kanepi            1140       (2216)      0.514 
15   (19)   Wickmayer         1095       (2283)      0.479 
16   (16)   Pavlyuchenkova    1087       (2458)      0.442 
17   (18)   Bartoli           1052       (2388)      0.440 
18   (11)   Peer              1051       (2965)      0.354 
19   (17)   Petrova           1039       (2434)      0.427 
20   (20)   Zheng             1025       (2228)      0.460 
21   (14)   Pennetta          979        (2550)      0.383 
22   (27)   MartinezSanchez   885        (1776)      0.498 
23   (22)   Kuznetsova        856        (2147)      0.398 
24   (23)   Kirilenko         829        (2140)      0.387 
25   (29)   Pironkova         748        (1597)      0.468
Code:
20101108 - after YEC and Bali
NEW (wta)  Player           *JR* PTS    (wta pts)   (new/wta)
1    (3)    Clijsters         6109       (6635)      0.920 
2    (1)    Wozniacki         4948       (8035)      0.615 
3    (4)    SerenaWilliams    4624       (5355)      0.863 
4    (2)    Zvonareva         4015       (6785)      0.591 
5    (7)    Schiavone         3291       (4935)      0.666 
6    (5)    Stosur            3148       (5170)      0.608 
7    (8)    Jankovic          2993       (4445)      0.673 
8    (6)    VenusWilliams     2928       (4985)      0.587 
9    (10)   Li                1848       (3555)      0.519 
10   (9)    Azarenka          1728       (4235)      0.408 
11   (16)   Sharapova         1344       (2591)      0.518 
12   (15)   Ivanovic          1302       (2600)      0.500 
13   (12)   Radwanska         1292       (3000)      0.430 
14   (17)   Rezai             1261       (2575)      0.489 
15   (20)   Wickmayer         1237       (2510)      0.492 
16   (21)   Kanepi            1197       (2460)      0.486 
17   (11)   Peer              1190       (3365)      0.353 
18   (19)   Pavlyuchenkova    1142       (2525)      0.452 
19   (14)   Bartoli           1126       (2645)      0.425 
20   (23)   Kleybanova        1118       (2250)      0.496 
21   (13)   Petrova           1112       (2702)      0.411 
22   (24)   Zheng             1025       (2228)      0.460 
23   (22)   Pennetta          945        (2430)      0.388 
24   (26)   MartinezSanchez   941        (2010)      0.468 
25   (18)   Kirilenko         934        (2550)      0.366
Code:
20110131 - after Australian Open
NEW (wta)  Player           *JR* PTS    (wta pts)   (new/wta)
1    (2)    Clijsters         8029       (8515)      0.942 
2    (1)    Wozniacki         5332       (8655)      0.616 
3    (3)    Zvonareva         4399       (7405)      0.594 
4    (4)    Schiavone         3386       (5055)      0.669 
5    (5)    Stosur            3084       (5050)      0.610 
6    (8)    Jankovic          2961       (4385)      0.675 
7    (6)    VenusWilliams     2736       (4645)      0.589 
8    (7)    Li                2528       (4450)      0.568 
9    (12)   SerenaWilliams    2464       (3035)      0.811 
10   (9)    Azarenka          1572       (3935)      0.399 
11   (13)   Sharapova         1490       (2936)      0.507 
12   (10)   Radwanska         1481       (3340)      0.443 
13   (19)   Ivanovic          1239       (2405)      0.515 
14   (17)   Kanepi            1197       (2460)      0.486 
15   (14)   Pavlyuchenkova    1196       (2645)      0.452 
16   (21)   Rezai             1193       (2350)      0.507 
17   (18)   Kvitova           1188       (2418)      0.491 
18   (22)   Kleybanova        1131       (2330)      0.485 
19   (15)   Bartoli           1116       (2595)      0.430 
20   (11)   Peer              1096       (3225)      0.339 
21   (25)   Wickmayer         1029       (2190)      0.469 
22   (16)   Pennetta          989        (2535)      0.390 
23   (28)   MartinezSanchez   941        (2010)      0.468 
24   (20)   Petrova           920        (2362)      0.389 
25   (23)   Kuznetsova        895        (2310)      0.387
Code:
20110523 - before the French Open
NEW (wta)  Player           *JR* PTS    (wta pts)   (new/wta)
1    (1)    Wozniacki         6836       (10255)     0.666 
2    (2)    Clijsters         6810       (8115)      0.839 
3    (3)    Zvonareva         4468       (7755)      0.576 
4    (5)    Schiavone         3404       (5246)      0.648 
5    (4)    Azarenka          3366       (5425)      0.620 
6    (8)    Sharapova         2816       (4481)      0.628 
7    (7)    Li                2657       (4635)      0.573 
8    (6)    Stosur            2362       (4645)      0.508 
9    (18)   SerenaWilliams    2304       (2500)      0.921 
10   (9)    Kvitova           1863       (3743)      0.497 
11   (10)   Jankovic          1636       (3670)      0.445 
12   (11)   Bartoli           1578       (3000)      0.526 
13   (12)   Petkovic          1384       (2880)      0.480 
14   (21)   Ivanovic          1373       (2425)      0.566 
15   (15)   Pavlyuchenkova    1212       (2715)      0.446 
16   (13)   Radwanska         1131       (2876)      0.393 
17   (16)   Kanepi            1124       (2545)      0.441 
18   (14)   Kuznetsova        1104       (2870)      0.384 
19   (22)   Wickmayer         1099       (2350)      0.467 
20   (17)   Goerges           1025       (2500)      0.410 
21   (30)   VenusWilliams     960        (1840)      0.521 
22   (25)   Peng              946        (2080)      0.454 
23   (24)   Kleybanova        923        (2165)      0.426 
24   (20)   Peer              916        (2445)      0.374 
25   (26)   Gajdosova         910        (2060)      0.441
Code:
20110606 - after the French Open
NEW (wta)  Player           *JR* PTS    (wta pts)   (new/wta)
1    (2)    Clijsters         6842       (8215)      0.832 
2    (1)    Wozniacki         6644       (9915)      0.670 
3    (4)    Li                4641       (6475)      0.716 
4    (3)    Zvonareva         4564       (7935)      0.575 
5    (5)    Azarenka          3618       (5920)      0.611 
6    (6)    Sharapova         3264       (5221)      0.625 
7    (7)    Schiavone         2380       (4646)      0.512 
8    (25)   SerenaWilliams    2048       (2000)      1.024 
9    (9)    Bartoli           2026       (3740)      0.541 
10   (8)    Kvitova           1987       (4018)      0.494 
11   (11)   Petkovic          1608       (3280)      0.490 
12   (14)   Pavlyuchenkova    1404       (3055)      0.459 
13   (10)   Stosur            1402       (3405)      0.411 
14   (19)   Ivanovic          1345       (2330)      0.577 
15   (12)   Kuznetsova        1296       (3210)      0.403 
16   (15)   Jankovic          1252       (3050)      0.410 
17   (13)   Radwanska         1227       (3056)      0.401 
18   (17)   Kanepi            1132       (2545)      0.445 
19   (18)   Wickmayer         1099       (2350)      0.467 
20   (16)   Goerges           1057       (2560)      0.412 
21   (20)   Peng              1010       (2240)      0.451 
22   (24)   Kleybanova        859        (2005)      0.428 
23   (27)   Gajdosova         846        (1940)      0.436 
24   (32)   VenusWilliams     832        (1560)      0.533 
25   (22)   Peer              792        (2170)      0.364
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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old Jul 5th, 2011, 11:47 PM
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Re: *JR* rankings

Honestly Marlene, with all the factors I've floated (especially a divisor counting most events one plays, with only a few possible "mulligans" in a 52 week period, to allow one to play back into form after a long time out from illness or injury) I don't know that the above is the "ultimate answer"; BTW, I'd give R128 16 points (half of R 64) with the 3 qualy rounds worth 2, 4, and 8 points respectively.

As stated, I'm also for restoring QP's and perhaps most "radical" of all, both forcing players to face eachother every so often, and limiting the number of times that they can per lets say ranking period. Team sports don't use random draws; in golf, F1, and NASCAR one is simultaneously competing with a whole host of ppl @ the same time. Tennis is rather unique in this respect, too much so, IMO.

The above lends itself well to events with draws of "base 32" and "base 64" not counting Byes, as a win a Premier with a Base 64 can equal being a Slam finalist and winning a Base 32 Premier can be equated to reaching a Slam SF. The odd draw sizes of IW and Miami (Base 128 minus a stupendous 32 Byes each) creates a quandary.

Whereas MM's should be easy to deal with, as they can simply earn one a "discounted" % of the points the same result would in a Premier, with the different level Challenger events being further reduced. Restoring QP's rewards one for taking out a marquee player whose in one out of loyalty to her country or agency.

I agree that there's no "perfect system", and thus wish they'd publish the Money List for the prior 52 weeks, not just the current year. (No point ignoring it, as if these young ladies are mainly "playing for fun"). And by all means keep your own inspired concept of time-sensitive rankings; perhaps you can combine your concept with some of mine. Thanks for the interesting illustration.

Edit: I'm still @ a loss for how to award points for things like the YEC, the Fed Cup, and the Olympics. BTW, I don't like Round Robin formats, and would replace these (as @ the YEC) with the Double Elimination system. Perhaps if the survivor of the "B draw" wins the final by regular scoring, you settle it with a single set for that title.

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Last edited by *JR*; Jul 5th, 2011 at 11:59 PM.
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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old Jul 6th, 2011, 12:22 AM Thread Starter
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Re: *JR* rankings

@JR - I like the idea of quality points, however my "system" is currently not capable of including such factors. Perhaps another number-crunching savvy fellow could give it a go?!

Another thing... we're trying to make a one-dimensional "who's the best" list as a distillation of a two-dimensional problem; who wins matches and who wins tournaments; maybe that's simply not possible? In a sport where PlayerA beats PlayerB (on clay) and PlayerB beats PlayerC (in majors) and PlayerC beats PlayerA (on grass) and PlayerD beats all of the above (when she's actually playing and not off having babies/barbrawling/whatever)... it's complicated!
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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old Jul 6th, 2011, 12:40 AM Thread Starter
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Re: *JR* rankings

Here's what I came up with for the YEC:

A Q-win gives 160 pts, a Q-loss gives 20 pts (1/8th of a Q-win). A SF-win gives 320 pts (twice of a Q-win) and a F-win gives 640 pts.

Max score (W-W-W W W) is 1440 pts, finalist (W-W-W W L) gets 800 pts. Venus W in 2009 whose results were (L-W-L W L) would get 520 pts.

I don't really like the robin-thing either, but I had to award points somehow... so I combined the WTA system with a double-up system and chose the pts base so that the total points would match the WTA points.


For Bali (cup-system) I used a base of 56 pts. The only unusual thing about Bali is the 3rd/4th place match - I gave an additional 56 pts to the 3rd place; i.e. the pts scale is Q:56 - 4th:112 - 3rd:168 - F:224 - W:448. Again, the base was chosen so that the points would sorta match the WTA points.
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