Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call? - TennisForum.com

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2009, 05:35 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
scoobsuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 536
                     
Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call?

There seem to be an awful lot of people who think that regardless of whether Serena's footfault was a valid call or not, that at that stage of the match the linejudge should refrain from intervening.

I find this absolutely baffling.

From a situation where linejudges are supposed to call it how they see it, no exceptions, people actually want a situation where they can be accused of being blatantly biased to one player or another, by turning a blind eye to what they see because the match is tight or it's a significant point.

I see it as totally unworkable that they use "discretion" and take into account the point of the match.

What a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that a call affects more then one player - it affects both. Every positive call for one player is a negative call for the other.

So what people seem to be saying is that instead of calling a footfault if that's what they see, which makes a double fault, they should disadvantage the opponent by not calling it, and turn a point that should have been awarded to the opponent into a point that's still anybody's.

I wonder how many people would be so much in favour of linejudges using "discretion" if it worked against the players they support?

I can tell you that I suspect the calls of "biased officiating" would go absolutely through the roof if such a rule was introduced.

The only thing I think from this incident is that they need to find a way to formally review & challenge footfault calls.

What do you think?
scoobsuk is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2009, 05:38 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,149
                     
Re: Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call?

It's a very stupid argument. There are rules in the book, and those rules should be applied at any stage of the match.

If your foot touches the line. It's a footfault. First serve, second serve, match point, first point..etc

Serena had already been footfaulted in the match by another LJ anyway.

Who knows if the LJ was following the score in the first place.
Apoleb is offline  
post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2009, 05:42 PM
Winner
 
Dave.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,011
                     
Re: Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call?

No. A foot fault is a foot fault and should be called at any point during the match, just like out balls should be called.


Line judges should not call though unless they are 100% sure.
Dave. is offline  
post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2009, 05:45 PM
Senior Member
 
moby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 14,431
                     
Re: Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call?

No. Linejudges should be impartial to occasion. Ideally, they should get linejudges who do not know how to keep score in tennis.

Also, there is this argument that the infraction (if present) did not give Serena an advantage on the serve. That is besides the point. Footfaults rarely give players significant advantages on the serve - should they never be called then? Or should officials say, it's ok to touch the baseline (it is only about 3 inches wide after all, how much of an advantage can you get?), but not ok to touch the inside of the court? In which case, players would move to stand on the baseline, and risk touching the inside of the court... and by infinite regression, players will soon be standing closer and closer to the net.

The rule for footfaulting exists, and players need to obey it. Whether you agree with the legitimacy of this rule is a different story, but so long as it exists, no leeway should be given in its imposition.

Edit: The truth is, it is notoriously easy NOT to foot fault. Just back the f*ck off the line. I know I stand 2-4 inches behind the baseline when I'm serving. If those 2-4 inches are so critical to the quality of Serena's serve, then footfaulting is a risk she has to take. (And this may be why the rule is in place, because crowding the baseline probably does give the server an advantage at the top level.)

A single flow'r he sent me, since we met./All tenderly his messenger he chose;
Deep-hearted, pure, with scented dew still wet - One perfect rose.
I knew the language of the floweret;/'My fragile leaves,' it said, 'his heart enclose.'
Love long has taken for his amulet/One perfect rose.
Why is it no one ever sent me yet/One perfect limousine, do you suppose?
Ah no, it's always just my luck to get/One perfect rose.

Last edited by moby; Sep 13th, 2009 at 06:03 PM.
moby is offline  
post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2009, 05:48 PM
Senior Member
 
drake3781's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,915
                     
Re: Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call?

I agree that the foot fault rule should and does apply at any point in the match.

If for some reason it would not apply at certain places in a match (and I don't agree that should happen), then it must be made clear to everyone (players, fans, officials) when it applies and not.

You cannot have an ambiguous concept that the rules apply sometimes and not other times.
drake3781 is offline  
post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2009, 05:48 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,232
                     
Re: Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call?

Quote:
If this game turns into a foulfest and the refs screw us over like they did A&M in the loss to UCLA, all Jayhawk fans will have a right to be furious. Those officials better let the guys play and not make this game closer than it needs to be by calling 45-50 fouls. And that goes for this game or any game we play the rest of the way. The players and coaches work too hard to let the season end because some officiating crew (Hear that, Curtis Shaw?) thinks the game is more about them than it is the players. Just ask A&M.

IF the officials let them play on Friday night and call a "normal" type of college basketball game with pretty much even foul calls and free throw attempts on both sides, KU will win by at least 12-15.
http://blogs.cjonline.com/index.php?entry=6810

Quote:
Somewhere in the middle of yesterday's 3-2 overtime loss in Saginaw, Kitchener Rangers captain Ben Shutron chatted with referees Scott Hoberg and Brent Holdsworth.

"Are we throwing a no-no tonight?" Shutron asked.

No-no as in no penalties.


That's exactly what the two Ontario Hockey League clubs threw before 2,827 at The Dow.

They played 61 minutes and 45 seconds of penalty-free hockey before one-time Ranger Jack Combs scored in overtime against old Saginaw Spirit teammate Parker Van Buskirk.
http://news.therecord.com/article/438396

Quote:
Lou Campanelli once thought the same thing as Dick Bennett, Rob Evans and any number of Pac-10 men's basketball coaches who come into the conference from other parts of the country, watch how games are officiated out here, and wonder what's going on.

In 1985, Campanelli — now the Pac-10's coordinator of men's basketball officiating — took over at Cal after 13 years at James Madison, and his initial reaction was that the Pac-10 officials didn't let 'em play the way they did elsewhere in the country.

It's a common perception of the Pac-10, voiced again in recent days by Bennett, the coach at Washington State, and Evans, the coach at Arizona State.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...acnotes17.html

It's a common sentiment in American competitive sport. You may not agree with it, but it's extremely common.
Donny is offline  
post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2009, 05:49 PM
country flag xan
Senior Member
 
xan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 5,810
                     
Re: Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call?

But you can challenge line calls, you can't challenge a foot fault - especially when they give a crucial point away.

Most spectators groan when footfaults are called at any point in a match - because they are so disruptive and pettifogging. They also seem to be called a lot more in slams than WTA events. I think a foot fault needs to be very clea and blatant to be called, and benefit of doubt given - or we risk matches being decided by minor officials who are often wrong on line calls.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Official Hitman of the Maria Mafia
xan is offline  
post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2009, 05:55 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,232
                     
Re: Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xan View Post
But you can challenge line calls, you can't challenge a foot fault - especially when they give a crucial point away.

Most spectators groan when footfaults are called at any point in a match - because they are so disruptive and pettifogging. They also seem to be called a lot more in slams than WTA events. I think a foot fault needs to be very clea and blatant to be called, and benefit of doubt given - or we risk matches being decided by minor officials who are often wrong on line calls.
Agree completely.
Donny is offline  
post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2009, 05:59 PM
Senior Member
 
Joana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yugoslavia
Posts: 11,415
                     
Re: Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xan View Post
Most spectators groan when footfaults are called at any point in a match - because they are so disruptive and pettifogging.
They groan because foot faults are relatively rarely called, the spectators are not used to them and thus they seem disruptive. They're not any more disruptive per se than any other calls.

The governing bodies in tennis need to make some decisions regarding foot faults. They should either scratch them completely or at least seriously redefine the rules regarding them, or they should make the linespeople consistently call them as they see them. The linespeople have turned a blind eye to foot faults for a very long time now and they have indeed used discretion about making the call. That's not sustainable. I'm actually surprised we haven't had more situations like this.
Joana is offline  
post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2009, 06:00 PM
Senior Member
 
BlameSerena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: In the Clutch visiting S
Posts: 5,836
                     
Re: Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call?

They should do their job. The thing is, she was wrong! Don't over-officiate when it's a marginal error at best in the SEMI-FINAL of a grand slam that would give the opposing player two match points. So if she needed to use some discretion to come to that conclusion then YES, linejudges should use discretion.

I.M.S.
BlameSerena is offline  
post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2009, 06:00 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,316
                     
Re: Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call?

This was a Bogus call...I don't care what anyone says, would that lady have called a footfault on Federer match point down in the final?

Ludicrous.

Not to mention the majority of professionals, are saying it wasn't a fucking footfault in the first place

I'm gettin potty mouthed like Rena....point penalty....

Quote:
I think with her serve and her athleticism, her power, her court mobility, I just think when she’s on, she’s the greatest player we’ve ever seen, ever. Now, whether her record is the greatest remains to be seen because she hasn’t retired yet. But I think she is really the greatest player. I have seen Martina and Steffi at their best. There are little chinks in those players’ armor, but it was a different era, where you didn’t need to be the perfect player.
Chris Evert
16
Thanx4nothin is offline  
post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2009, 06:01 PM
Senior Member
 
VeeReeDavJCap81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,542
                     
Re: Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call?

The line judge should never waver regardless of the situation at hand.

Really, don't even look at me...
VeeReeDavJCap81 is offline  
post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2009, 06:01 PM
Senior Member
 
BlameSerena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: In the Clutch visiting S
Posts: 5,836
                     
Re: Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call?

And like Serena said, she never gets called for foot faults, so what's with that? She comes here and all of a sudden they come in bunches. If the tour isn't being consistent with when and how they call them, then that is unfair to players.

I.M.S.
BlameSerena is offline  
post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2009, 06:02 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
scoobsuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 536
                     
Re: Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call?

They need to find a way to challenge footfault calls. Then this goes away.
scoobsuk is offline  
post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2009, 06:02 PM
Senior Member
 
moby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 14,431
                     
Re: Should linejudges use "discretion" when making a call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xan View Post
But you can challenge line calls, you can't challenge a foot fault - especially when they give a crucial point away.

Most spectators groan when footfaults are called at any point in a match - because they are so disruptive and pettifogging.
Up until 2006, line calls could not be challenged. That didn't stop linejudges from calling lines. In the future, they may introduce a foot fault review system. Who knows?

Serena should have made the appropriate adjustments after the first foot fault. That's what Jesse Owens did when he won the long jump Olympics Gold. He nearly fouled out due to "pettyfogging" (or rather breaking the rule by stepping over the line on his jump) but thanks to advice from his fellow competitor, realised that he was so good that he could jump from inches behind the line and still eclipse the opposition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joana View Post
The linespeople have turned a blind eye to foot faults for a very long time now and they have indeed used discretion about making the call. That's not sustainable. I'm actually surprised we haven't had more situations like this.
Yes.

A single flow'r he sent me, since we met./All tenderly his messenger he chose;
Deep-hearted, pure, with scented dew still wet - One perfect rose.
I knew the language of the floweret;/'My fragile leaves,' it said, 'his heart enclose.'
Love long has taken for his amulet/One perfect rose.
Why is it no one ever sent me yet/One perfect limousine, do you suppose?
Ah no, it's always just my luck to get/One perfect rose.
moby is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the TennisForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Image Verification
Please enter the six letters or digits that appear in the image opposite.

Registration Image

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome