Fixing the WTA - TennisForum.com
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 2009, 01:44 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,944
                     
Fixing the WTA

Well, that supposes it's broken ....

The WTA's problem isn't one it can fix by itself. Here are the scores of the last ten women's finals

oz '09 6-0 6-3
us '08 6-4 7-5
wb '08 7-5 6-4
rg '08 6-4 6-3
oz '08 7-5 6-3
us '07 6-1 6-3
wb '07 6-4 6-1
rg '07 6-1 6-2
oz '07 6-1 6-2
us '06 6-4 6-4

One straight set win after another, most of them less competitive than the scoreline.

Here's what has been happening on the men's side in that period.

'06 RG 1-6, 6-1, 6-4, 7-6
'06 WB 6-0, 7-6, 6-7, 6-3
'07 RG 6-3, 4-6, 6-3, 6-4
'07 WB 7-6, 4-6, 7-6, 2-6, 6-2
'08 RG 6-1, 6-3, 6-0
'08 WB 6-4, 6-4, 6-7, 6-7, 9-7
'09 OZ 7-5, 3-6, 7-6, 3-6, 6-2

One of the greatest rivlaries in the history of the sport. Connors-Borg stuff. It's the reverse of 2002-3, when men's tennis was blase, and women's tennis was about to be the next BIG sport. This isn't something you 'fix'. You can't MAKE two players of differing styles and abilities be basically equivalent, and better than everybody else. All you can do is hope.

The marketing department can't fix this.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.

Last edited by Volcana; Mar 24th, 2009 at 02:15 PM.
Volcana is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 2009, 01:53 PM
Team WTAworld
Lounge Owner
 
ViennaCalling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 44,246
                     
Re: Fixing the WTA



Tamira PASZEK
Na LI - Francesca SCHIAVONE - Roberta VINCI
Tamira's backhand, Roby's slice, Galina's dropshot


ViennaCalling is offline  
post #3 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 2009, 01:57 PM
Senior Member
 
goldenlox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: cyberspace
Posts: 101,059
                     
Re: Fixing the WTA

Vera is 18-2 in 2009 with no 3 setters in 20 matches.
That's not so strange. Very few players fight back.
Justine won 2 majors in 2007 without losing a set. Then Maria won the AO in 2008 without losing a set, and average match lost 5 games that tournament.

The women rarely fight back. One of the reasons the 2007 YEC final was great is because after Maria won the 1st set, Justine fought back

The most wasted of all days is one without laughter....
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there
Enjoy This Moment!!
HEALTH and HAPPINESS to EVERYONE

goldenlox is offline  
 
post #4 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 2009, 02:14 PM
Senior Member
 
BlameSerena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: In the Clutch visiting S
Posts: 5,836
                     
Re: Fixing the WTA

The thing is that if we're going to measure the success of the WTA by what the men have done or are doing, then we will never be satisfied.

I admit that I was bored during IW (big surprise), but the truth is the best rivalries on the women's side of active players are Serena/Venus.

They have met in one of those 10 finals, and it was a competitive and intense match.

Fed/Nadal have met in all but one of the last 10 men's finals if I'm not mistaken.

I.M.S.

Last edited by BlameSerena; Mar 24th, 2009 at 02:27 PM.
BlameSerena is offline  
post #5 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 2009, 02:24 PM
NeverWoz
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 27,150
                     
Re: Fixing the WTA

Every sport goes through ups and downs, and the WTA is unfortunately in a "down" period right now. As much as I enjoyed the first half of 2008 because my favorites were winning, the tennis wasn't all that competitive.

Women's tennis was probably in a funk from what, 1994-1998 maybe? Then 1998-2003 was when ratings skyrocketed, prize money went up, the quality of tennis got amazing. Now, it's kind of tapered off a bit (with a few exceptions, Wimby 05 being the biggest one) because the game has evolved (or devolved, depends).

Right now the women are in a stage where they're trying to come to grips with hitting the ball with so much pace, trying to keep it in play, and win all at the same time. 1998-2003 was the perfect combination of power, topspin, variety, and fitness to me. Right now the emphasis is more on crushing the ball, than learning how to play TENNIS, which is a game that involves much more than spanking a ball.

Thats why Venus and Serena, show to me, that hopes for tennis getting "fixed" is not dead. In 1997 they were the two spanking the ball with little thought...only three years later they showed how much they had progressed and evolved their games. So as bad as it looks now, I think the younger generation has lots of potential/promise to develop their games, add a little more safety, and still hit hard.

I dunno.
Ryan is offline  
post #6 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 2009, 02:28 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9
                     
Re: Fixing the WTA

One of the main reasons I tihnk womens matches often have more one sided scorelines than mens matches is serve. An ATP player with a big serve could loose 6-4 6-4, when in reality he has been outplayed. A match of the same one sided nature in womens tennis might end 6-2 6-2.

Still dosn't explain why there hasn't been a 3 set grand slam final in so long. Maybe the men are stronger mentally. Of course a womens grand slam match is over at 2-love, whereas a mens can still turn around. If the wimbledon final was best of three, Nadal would've won in strainght sets. Wouldn't be called one of the great matches of all time then.
AndrewMarshall is offline  
post #7 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 2009, 02:33 PM
Senior Member
 
BlameSerena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: In the Clutch visiting S
Posts: 5,836
                     
Re: Fixing the WTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewMarshall View Post
One of the main reasons I tihnk womens matches often have more one sided scorelines than mens matches is serve. An ATP player with a big serve could loose 6-4 6-4, when in reality he has been outplayed. A match of the same one sided nature in womens tennis might end 6-2 6-2.

Still dosn't explain why there hasn't been a 3 set grand slam final in so long. Maybe the men are stronger mentally. Of course a womens grand slam match is over at 2-love, whereas a mens can still turn around. If the wimbledon final was best of three, Nadal would've won in strainght sets. Wouldn't be called one of the great matches of all time then.
My feelings as well.
Different format. Men have more time to get into it. Although, I'm not sure how many of the two out of three matches go three sets on the men's side. That would be a more fair comparison than the slams.
But even still...
Different sex.
Different styles.
Different players.
It's really hard to compare with such differences.
For example, I think the USO 08 final for the women was better than the AO 09 final for the men, but how can you really compare that? It's just preference.

ETA
You wouldn't compare Annika Sorenstam to Tiger Woods nor would you compare Mia Hamm to Cristiano Ranaldo or Lisa Leslie to Michael Jordan as individuals, nor would you compare their sports to the other. I don't think we should do it for tennis.

I.M.S.

Last edited by BlameSerena; Mar 24th, 2009 at 02:39 PM.
BlameSerena is offline  
post #8 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 2009, 02:34 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 22
                     
Re: Fixing the WTA

The US08 womens final was certainly better than the mens the next day.
amnorge is offline  
post #9 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 2009, 02:43 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 534
                     
Re: Fixing the WTA

Guess you could "fix" it so competitive finals were always guaranteed. Just follow pro wrestling's lead.....
sipnsurfMurph is offline  
post #10 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 2009, 02:43 PM
Senior Member
 
Marshmallow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: In Love...
Posts: 9,223
                     
Re: Fixing the WTA

IMO the lack of quality Slam finals is merely a symptom of a bigger (more worrying issue). I think on the ATP, were are just witnessing the natural course of things. Sampras retired, some players played exceptional tennis and picked up slam, then Federer emerged to dominate, and now Nadal like Seles has come along. This is how it should be, but this is not been able to happen on the WTA primarily I think, because of the inability of the top women players to stay consistently healthy and match fit. Looking specifically at this generation, I think by natural order we should be watching the tail end of WS V Belgians (that was the main rivalry of now – maybe add Hingis to that, and Amelie…). Just starting to rise up to take over should be Sharapova, Kuzzy, Ivanovic and Jankovic.

But what’s happened? WS have been hampered by injury and health concerns (Knee, abnominal injuries, weight issues (after ankle injury) and anemia [perhaps relating to murder of sister]). Kim complained of her injuries and said they were a factor in her retirement, as well as over excited ovaries, and Justine who was probably the only one who managed her body well, needed knee surgery after retirement and not to forget 2004 (although some like Lei Clijsters implied that was a steroid let down I think). Also, Sharapova and her Shoulder.

The inability for the top players to stay healthy consistently has disallowed the natural order to flow. Had it been allowed I think we could been enjoying competitive slam finals. But looking at the WTA now specifically, this health problem meant that once Justine retired (the most physically reliable one) – there was no-one on the tour to play a Federer role… to keep the youngsters in check, thereby pushing them to grow mentally tougher, so they don’t crumble when the pressure is on. [That takes time, Djokovic for instance choked at the USO 2007, Murray was Sub-par to in his first final]. I think it shows in the particularly easy score lines – total mismatches.

In this case, the only people who can fix the WTA are the top players by getting their fitness and scheduling correct and looking after their bodies so that they can stay in the sport and compete. Maybe just Maybe racquet manufacturers and the WTA should come together and design women’s racquets. Now… rationale here is that the power ready racquets available are pushing the women’s game to become a power based game – imitating the ATP… thereby straining their bodies in the process (according to sex biology) and being injured all the time. So you change the racquet you dissuade power centred plays and force the WTA into adapting into a style or level that is more suited to their bodies. [I know this is flawed because it’s based on several assumptions that haven’t all been substantiated but there might be something in it].


One last thing though… the best of 3 set V the best of 5 set thing plays a role too. If the men played best of 3 sets, it’s highly likely that last years ‘amazing wimbledon final’ would have been a shameful straight sets beating (Rafa was much better than Fed in those 2 sets). In fact the score lines would be:

'06 RG 1-6, 6-1, 6-4,
'06 WB 6-0, 7-6,
'08 RG 6-1, 6-3,
'08 WB 6-4, 6-4,
Add to that the USO final scores...
Basically more like the ATP maters final results which really aren’t all that good.

Just a thought.
Marshmallow is offline  
post #11 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 2009, 02:49 PM
Senior Member
 
BlameSerena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: In the Clutch visiting S
Posts: 5,836
                     
Re: Fixing the WTA

^^I agree Marshmallow.I think health is another factor that needs to be taken into consideration. Great post all around.

I.M.S.
BlameSerena is offline  
post #12 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 2009, 02:58 PM
Senior Member
 
AndreConrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Close to US Open :)
Posts: 4,668
                     
Re: Fixing the WTA

I am not convinced about the crisis of WTA. The straight set wins are not proving much. In fact if there was a rule to win 3 sets in WTA at a GS, there would be more chances to disrupt straight set wins. I think the abundance of young promising players is in fact a good thing going for WTA. We cannot expect that the teenagers are going to be immediate stars, because if they did become the stars I don't believe that their bodies would sustain it for a long time even though women develop a little faster than men. Nevertheless I think there is a lot of young talent here. Check out the iWatch thread.

Don't get me wrong I don't think that WTA is perfect. There is a lot of things that should be changed or improved, however it is not as bad as some of the posters would make us believe.

The best of luck to all tennis players; The game is on!
-Andre
P.S.Well,... special luck to Agnieszka Radwanska, Marta Domachowska, Daniela Hantuchova, Urszula Radwanska
Bally, Rest In Peace!

Last edited by AndreConrad; Mar 24th, 2009 at 03:08 PM. Reason: spelling :embarassed:
AndreConrad is offline  
post #13 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 2009, 03:04 PM
Look who's back!
 
Sean.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 32,452
                     
Re: Fixing the WTA

Don't fix it if it aint broke



Vera Zvonareva * Ana Ivanović * Li Na * Laura Robson ......
Sean. is offline  
post #14 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 2009, 03:24 PM
Senior Member
 
Marshmallow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: In Love...
Posts: 9,223
                     
Re: Fixing the WTA

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewMarshall View Post
One of the main reasons I tihnk womens matches often have more one sided scorelines than mens matches is serve. An ATP player with a big serve could loose 6-4 6-4, when in reality he has been outplayed. A match of the same one sided nature in womens tennis might end 6-2 6-2.

Still dosn't explain why there hasn't been a 3 set grand slam final in so long. Maybe the men are stronger mentally. Of course a womens grand slam match is over at 2-love, whereas a mens can still turn around. If the wimbledon final was best of three, Nadal would've won in strainght sets. Wouldn't be called one of the great matches of all time then.
I like that. Wanted to be the first to mention it in the thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlameSerena View Post
My feelings as well.
Different format. Men have more time to get into it.
Although, I'm not sure how many of the two out of three matches go three sets on the men's side. That would be a more fair comparison than the slams.
But even still...
Different sex.
Different styles.
Different players.
It's really hard to compare with such differences.
For example, I think the USO 08 final for the women was better than the AO 09 final for the men, but how can you really compare that? It's just preference.

ETA
You wouldn't compare Annika Sorenstam to Tiger Woods nor would you compare Mia Hamm to Cristiano Ranaldo or Lisa Leslie to Michael Jordan as individuals, nor would you compare their sports to the other. I don't think we should do it for tennis.
I like that, especially the first parts. Male players do have more time to get into it in best of 5, classic example being last years Wimbledon Final. It was close to be straight sets then rain delay/Federer's serve and forehand started to fire. Best of 3 could have given that "greatest match of all time" a very different complexion. Similarly had the indian wells mens final been best of 5 sets, it could have been different too - considering the emotions of a player down a set and break in a best of 5 set match will feel and respond differently, to a player in the same situation in best of 3. The Men's Miami final of 2005 was a good example too. Federer didn't get a handle on Rafa's game til the third set. *waffle*

Quote:
Originally Posted by amnorge View Post
The US08 womens final was certainly better than the mens the next day.
I agree. Jankovic also gave a better first slam final performance than Murray did.
Marshmallow is offline  
post #15 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 2009, 03:39 PM
Senior Member
 
Helen Lawson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for Shirley
Posts: 19,301
                     
Re: Fixing the WTA

Straight sets aren't necessarily a bad match. They are when it's two sucky players or one chokes. I thought Serena played fantastic against Maria in the '07 Australian final. If you want to see total dominiation on serve and return of serve, that match is gold, even though it did not last long. Maria did not choke, just had nothing to stop Serena that day.

But most of the rest sucked. The part about fighting for a match is key, few of these girls have that in their minds these days, most are happy to have made a final and won't fight like hell to win it if it will require that. The "greats" of this generation like Serena, Maria, Justine, Venus, yes, they will fight like hell if they want the win, but who else can you really say this about today? I can't think of anyone, or at least anyone who has decent enough game to win big. I don't know whether it's they can get fabulously wealthy making finals only, or what, don't get it. Apart from money and ranking points, you have to want to shove it in the other girls' faces that you're better and you want your name on that trophy, and I see few girls who value those anymore. Any other thoughts?

Pete Sampras' book, he talked about mentality of a champion a lot, and what pulled him through some tight ones was his mentality, that "I'm Pete Sampras, and you're not." I have no doubts the 4 I identified above think that quite a lot, but you think Sveta or Dinara think the same? I doubt it, not sure if they need mental coaches or what.

Whitney Houston and her receipts:

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthrea...17447&page=324
Helen Lawson is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the TennisForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome