'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'? - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 02:54 PM Thread Starter
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'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'?

Up til yesterday, if Maria Sharapova, Jelena Jankovic, Venus Williams, Ana Ivanovic, Daniela Hantuchova, and Agnieszka Radwanska are the last six players in a non-clay court slam, I'd say 'just give Venus the trophy'. She beat all these players the last time she played them.

2007 Wimbledon R16 def SHARAPOVA 6-1 6-3
2007 Wimbledon SMI def IVANOVIC 6-2 6-4

2007 SAN DIEGO R16 def HANTUCHOVA 6-0 6-3
2007 U.S. Open R16 def IVANOVIC 6-4 6-2
2007 U.S. Open QTR def JANKOVIC 4-6 6-1 7-6(4)

As for Radwanska ... oops....

2006 Luxembourg R16 A. RADWANSKA def Venus 6-3 6-0


Still, Venus is a prohibitive favorite. Of course she is. I mean, let's be realistic. Six GS singles titles and a daunting advantage head-to-head. Hantuchova and Ivanovic have never beaten her. Jankovic is injured. Radwanska's a baby. Sharapova's game is tailor-made for Venus. Right? So why do I have this nagging doubt?

If you had told me before yesterday that Ivanovic, Jankovic and Sharapova were playing Venus, Serena and Henin, I'd have bet real money on two out of three wins for the old guard. I certainly would NOT bet on ALL the GS title holders from 2007 losing in the first slam of 20078 in the same 28 hour period. But after watching Serena and Henin lose, and lose convincingly, in matches that were not even competitive, now I have .... doubts. It's not like Venus has using the roadgrader offense. She's hasn't dropped a set, but she hasn't had any easy sets either. Meanwhile Ivanovic seems to be at the top of her game.

The changing of the guard that began in 1997 wasn't done until 2002, Capriati being the last slam winner from the 'pre-Williams' generation. Are we looking at the end of the change that began in 2004? This generation of players produced quite a few slam winners. Serena, Venus, Henin, Hingis, plus a one-offs for Myskina and Clijsters. Four players within a couple years of age of eash other with five or more slam singles titles is golden age stuff. But sooner or later, that sort of run comes to an end.

This tournament saw quite a few 'Old School' vs 'New Age' matches
Davenport vs Sharapova
Dementieva vs Peer
Dementieva vs Sharapova
Venus vs Ivanovic
Serena vs Jankovic
Henin vs Sharapova
Hantuchova vs Radwanska
Petrova vs Radwanska
Venus vs Domachowska
And as we stand here now, New Age is kicking Old School's collective ass. There are six women left in the tournament. Only one is over age 25. The rest? 24, 22, 20, 20 and 18. Youth will be served. Mere mortals cannot hold back the tides, especially the tides of history.

Tonight, we will see what a goddess can do.

But regardless of the outcome, the sound of the inevitable is quite loud now. 'Generation Sharapova' is on the march. The only question is do the best of the current generation 'go gently into that good night'? Or 'rage, rage against the dying of the light'?

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post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 03:03 PM
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Re: 'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'?

Giveth it to Venus
she's goin to win it anyway

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post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 03:05 PM
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Re: 'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'?

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Originally Posted by Avecmmoi15 View Post
Giveth it to Venus
she's goin to win it anyway


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post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 03:11 PM
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Re: 'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'?

What this Australian Open proves is that the 'Big 3' or whatever it was is complete rubbish. Any excuse to talk about Serena or Venus as if they were dominant last year. Yes, they had good years and were among the best in the world, but Jankovic and Ivanovic and Sharapova are all part of the group that is chasing Henin for the number 1 spot. It's not just Serena and Venus.

There is no doubt that in the 2nd last year of the decade, a new generation is beginning to fully take over, but I think the old generation still has a couple of good years left. Obviously Venus and Serena are still at the top, Davenport perhaps later in the year, Seles is talking about a comeback, Capriati, Pierce haven't said they're retired, Mauresmo. I think Venus and Serena will be the last ones remaining, but if we could get the others I just mentioned back healthy in the next year or so, they will still have some wins left in them.

Then we have this sort of 'middle group' with Henin, Kuznetsova, Hantuchova, Myskina, Dementieva who only really got to their best in 2003-2004 so we can't say they are old or new. Obvously Henin isn't going anywhere and Hantuchova is playing well again. They are still very prominent in today's game.

So my answer is the older group of players can have a couple of good years if they get back fit and healthy. However, the younger generation are definetely taking over as we can see with this slam.
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post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 03:13 PM
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Re: 'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'?

Here we go again ... yesterday, it was Serena who would def win. You people are hilarious
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post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 03:16 PM
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Re: 'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'?

^ That's why they have to play the matches. It's fun to sit on here and speculate as to what will happen, but we don't actually know what'll happen until the balls are struck.

RIP ELENA BALTACHA *forever in our hearts*
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post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 03:18 PM
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Re: 'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'?

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^ That's why they have to play the matches. It's fun to sit on here and speculate as to what will happen, but we don't actually know what'll happen until the balls are struck.
Indeed.
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post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 03:21 PM
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Re: 'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'?

Too soon to tell either way.

If Venus doesn’t win this slam I don’t think it’ll be indicative of a changing of the guard. Justine and Serena were not beaten convincingly, while playing as well as they can play consistently on the tour. Henin had chances to get it back to 5-5 in the first (which could have altered the complexion of that match…) but I digress. I think it’ll take more than a couple of upsets in one tournament to give a clearer picture. [Lets not forget, just week ago we were hearing people speak of Justine as unbeatable!]

Nothing would make me happier than Venus winning this slam but her form has been as patchy as anyone. She should be able to thump the remaining field, but she hasn’t look unbeatable out there yet – and she can play better.

But in the remaining field, for Venus – Aga is the only player that really worried me, because that’s is NOT a game style Venus likes.
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post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'?

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Originally Posted by dav_6789 View Post
Then we have this sort of 'middle group' with Henin, Kuznetsova, Hantuchova, Myskina, Dementieva who only really got to their best in 2003-2004 so we can't say they are old or new.
I went with age over 'when they got good'. You pretty much have to group Henin, Dementieva and Myskina in with Venus, Serena and Hingis. The six were born within two years of each other.
Jun 17, 1980 Venus
Sep 30, 1980 Hingis
Jul 08, 1981 Myskina
Sep 26, 1981 Serena
Oct 15, 1981 Dementieva
Jun 01, 1982 Henin
Just as Sharapova, Ivanovic, Peer, Chakvetadze, Golovin, Safina, Szavay, Azarenka, Kirilenko, Vaidisova, Radwanska and Safarova are all with two years of age of each other. The players who fall in between groups are Hantuchova, Clijsters, Kuznetsova, Jankovic and Bartoli.

There's a tight grouping of players age 25-27, who've accomplished quite a bit. And there's a tight grouping of players age 18-20, who are just starting to accomplish a lot. Sharapova is out ahead of her cohort just as Martina Hingis was out ahead of her's.

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post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 03:40 PM
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Re: 'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'?

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
Too soon to tell either way.

If Venus doesn’t win this slam I don’t think it’ll be indicative of a changing of the guard. Justine and Serena were not beaten convincingly, while playing as well as they can play consistently on the tour. Henin had chances to get it back to 5-5 in the first (which could have altered the complexion of that match…) but I digress. I think it’ll take more than a couple of upsets in one tournament to give a clearer picture. [Lets not forget, just week ago we were hearing people speak of Justine as unbeatable!]

Nothing would make me happier than Venus winning this slam but her form has been as patchy as anyone. She should be able to thump the remaining field, but she hasn’t look unbeatable out there yet – and she can play better.

But in the remaining field, for Venus – Aga is the only player that really worried me, because that’s is NOT a game style Venus likes.

I agree almost completely with this comment. Its, just one tournament. Yes it's the AO, but opinions of standards need to be defined over a reasonable sample of performances, not one event. Going into this event I thought Justine Henin, Maria Sharapova, Serena Williams and Venus Williams were the true top 4 players in that order. Based on what I have seen the only change I would make to this is I might put Venus ahead of Serena. Maria has had a good win, but she needs to beat or out perform Justine consistently to be considered above her.

The only bit of the above quote I disagree with is 'Nothing would make me happier than Venus winning this slam', and that's because I would like to see Jelena Janković win it. Not for any logical reason but because I have soft spot for her. Although if I retain my objectivity I know the chances of that are fairly remote.

In my humble opinion Maria probably has the best chance now, followed by Venus and Ana Ivanović.

Regards

Tim
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post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 03:43 PM
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Re: 'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'?

Again?

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post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 03:49 PM
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Re: 'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'?

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
Too soon to tell either way.

If Venus doesn’t win this slam I don’t think it’ll be indicative of a changing of the guard. Justine and Serena were not beaten convincingly, while playing as well as they can play consistently on the tour. Henin had chances to get it back to 5-5 in the first (which could have altered the complexion of that match…) but I digress. I think it’ll take more than a couple of upsets in one tournament to give a clearer picture. [Lets not forget, just week ago we were hearing people speak of Justine as unbeatable!]

Nothing would make me happier than Venus winning this slam but her form has been as patchy as anyone. She should be able to thump the remaining field, but she hasn’t look unbeatable out there yet – and she can play better.

But in the remaining field, for Venus – Aga is the only player that really worried me, because that’s is NOT a game style Venus likes.
same here. i hope daniela can take her down.
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post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 03:54 PM
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Re: 'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'?

Venus has a snowball's chance in hell to win the AO this year.

Venus is up against Ivanovic in just a short while here. While I believe wholeheartedly that Ana is going to send her packing, if she does not, then either Hantuchova or Radwanska will. I personally believe Hantuchova will defeat Radwanska, however. If by some miracle Venus makes it to the final she will be swiftly and completely sent to the showers crying by Sharapova, who in my opinion is unquestionably going to be crowned the winner, and who has played a more solid and complete game than anyone on the field so far.
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post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:01 PM
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Re: 'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'?

RADWANSKA will take it!
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post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:07 PM
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Re: 'Just Give Venus the Trophy' vs 'The Old Order Changeth'?

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Venus has a snowball's chance in hell to win the AO this year.

Venus is up against Ivanovic in just a short while here. While I believe wholeheartedly that Ana is going to send her packing, if she does not, then either Hantuchova or Radwanska will. I personally believe Hantuchova will defeat Radwanska, however. If by some miracle Venus makes it to the final she will be swiftly and completely sent to the showers crying by Sharapova, who in my opinion is unquestionably going to be crowned the winner, and who has played a more solid and complete game than anyone on the field so far.
perhaps, but lots of matches to be played.

Venus is clearly not playing the best that she can. If she somehow turns her game on though, she is the best among the remaining field.

Venus just beat Maria two weeks ago in the Hong Kong exhibition. she was playing well there and matched up well, even though it was an exhibition. I don't think Venus is worried about Maria. She is focused on Ana and after the upsets of last night, I don't expect her to take the match for granted even though Ana has never taken a set off of her. Most of all, she is and should be focused on her own game.
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