Jelena Better have won that Match... - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:11 AM Thread Starter
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Jelena Better have won that Match...

Given all the opportunities Serena gave her early, late and in between.

That's got to be the weirdest Serena Williams loss I've EVER seen (and I've been watching her a long time).

It was almost as if Serena REFUSED to WIN! :weird: Instead of doing what she normally does and refuse to lose. She refused to move even reasonably well. (JJ had nothing to do with her poor movement). She refused to serve well (JJ had nothing to do with her poor serving). She refused to fight (JJ did nothing special to take away her spirit.)

It was just :weird: I've got a theory, but it's waaaay too incendiary to be aired publicly.

JA ME KA IS THE GOAT!!!
22!!!!The Debate is OVER, Suckas!!
Queen Vee , Keys!, Steffi , Maria,Pre-Carlos Na A-Rad

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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:16 AM
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Re: Jelean Better have won that Match...

i disagree, she looked much worse at the US open... At least here you saw some life in her.... she tried to battle back at the end, but too little to late, jankovic saw the finish line and ran for it. Serena pretty much gave her a 20 minute head start though
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:16 AM
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Re: Jelena Better have won that Match...

Delusional. Jelena played a much cleaner game, and played the longer rallies better.
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:18 AM
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Re: Jelean Better have won that Match...

All,

Do tell please. I agree w/you all the way. You are quite on point. I too have been watching Serena a long time. What's your theory?

Her serve alone (being the best in the biz) was off. Under 100 MPH? I mean really!

But alas, it is just a game. It is not rocket science. And none of those ladies will solve world hunger w/a ball and racket. The good news is Serena will live to play another tourney. Not that she needs to w/all her money and bling - mind you.

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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:21 AM
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Re: Jelena Better have won that Match...

tell us your theory!!!! or at least pm ME if you want.

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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:22 AM
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Re: Jelena Better have won that Match...

hm.... interesting.

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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:26 AM
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Re: Jelena Better have won that Match...

ohhh, pm me your theory too pleaseeeee
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:35 AM
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Re: Jelena Better have won that Match...

PM me too

I will say Serena gave Jelena a lot of chances on her serve that normally Jankovic wouldn't have had. And I know people will say I'm being bitter and a hater and blah blah but I just thought if Serena could serve like she normally does the match wouldn't gone the way it did. anyhoo JMHO disagree if you want. I like Jelena...she's cute at times but she needs to watch tapes of herself last year b4 Wimbledon and she'll see that she's not playing well. And I've watched Jankovic a lot...cuz she's in almost every single tournament.
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:36 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Jelena Better have won that Match...

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Originally Posted by Tennisstar86 View Post
i disagree, she looked much worse at the US open... At least here you saw some life in her.... she tried to battle back at the end, but too little to late, jankovic saw the finish line and ran for it. Serena pretty much gave her a 20 minute head start though
But that was the USO, at the end of a disappointing year in which her fitness and motivation was a constant question. Quite frankly, while a lot of us hoped and believed otherwise, in retrospect her results weren't that surprising. This however was the top of the year, when she looked as fit as she's looked since late '02 and her form was arguably the best at the tournament and had been serving and moving fantastically.

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Originally Posted by SharapovaFan16 View Post
Delusional. Jelena played a much cleaner game, and played the longer rallies better.
All good points (except for the delusional part of course ) but none of those points have anything to do with Serena's poor serving, crappy footwork (even in the early games which she won) or lack of fighting spirit. So while your points are good in a vaacuum, they're irrelevant to my question.

JA ME KA IS THE GOAT!!!
22!!!!The Debate is OVER, Suckas!!
Queen Vee , Keys!, Steffi , Maria,Pre-Carlos Na A-Rad
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:40 AM
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Re: Jelena Better have won that Match...

I understand that Williams fans will be delusional because their emotional well being rests on the lie (formed when Serena had a brief, 1.5 year period of dominance in which it was almost true) that no one is good enough to beat Serena other than Serena herself. However, an unbiased analysis with its basis in facts (i.e. match statistics) reveals a far different picture.

What really happened is that Jankovic neutralized Serena's serve because she got most of them back really deep without much pace, allowing Jankovic to give Serena few free points on serve and also to get back to the center of the court. It was brilliant. From there, Jankovic kept the ball within a foot of the line on almost every shot, and did not miss. Jankovic had five more winners than UFEs. For a match of this caliber, that is very very solid indeed. But what's more striking, Jelena won 3 out of every 4 points when Serena put in a second serve. Serena's second delivery was rather slow, but so was Jelena's, yet Jelena managed to win 50% of second serve points. Jelena also capitalized on her break point opportunities--winning almost 50% of them. Against a player as mentally tough and with as big a serve as Serena, that's incredible and speaks volumes about Jelena's improved mental toughness.

But the biggest statistic that reveals that Serena was not nearly as big a factor as Jelena in this match's result, is the fact that Serena hit 34 winners to 36 UFEs--against a player as fast as Jankovic. Serena has won matches against top players with a -10 and even -15 numbers before. Granted, anytime a player is in the negatives, that does mean she's not zoning or playing her best, but anywhere within 5 of neutral shows that a player is playing well enough to win. Jelena was +5, so she was playing very well, but that was a bigger factor.

I think the truth is that Jelena's form of return takes away Serena's biggest advantage, and will until Serena becomes comfortable with serving and volleying.

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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:41 AM
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Re: Jelena Better have won that Match...

Guys, obviously DoubleFist's theory is that Serena got paid off by a betting agency to throw the match.

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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:41 AM
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Re: Jelena Better have won that Match...

Another important thing to look at: Jelena won a large majority of games that got to Deuce. Serena was not as mentally tough as she normally is, and Jelena was very mentally tough.

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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:43 AM
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Re: Jelena Better have won that Match...

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Originally Posted by DOUBLEFIST View Post
But that was the USO, at the end of a disappointing year in which her fitness and motivation was a constant question. Quite frankly, while a lot of us hoped and believed otherwise, in retrospect her results weren't that surprising. This however was the top of the year, when she looked as fit as she's looked since late '02 and her form was arguably the best at the tournament and had been serving and moving fantastically.


All good points (except for the delusional part of course ) but none of those points have anything to do with Serena's poor serving, crappy footwork (even in the early games which she won) or lack of fighting spirit. So while your points are good in a vaacuum, they're irrelevant to my question.
I meant her lackluster I dont care attitude at the US OPEN.... and no she was in much better shape when she won the title in 05... just look at pictures of it.... The "great" shape shes gotten in. she looks better but lets not kid ourselves, shes only lost maybe 15-20 pounds... And shes nowhere near as toned as she was in 05.... and lets not even talk about her 03 body....

As far as her form is concerned... it wasnt that great... Her serve was though... and she didnt have it today, or in her last match for that matter.... as someone else said she was living and dying bye it, even though she did infact play better, and clearly something else was on her mind... where is the interview.... tired of waiting...
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:45 AM
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Re: Jelena Better have won that Match...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOUBLEFIST View Post
But that was the USO, at the end of a disappointing year in which her fitness and motivation was a constant question. Quite frankly, while a lot of us hoped and believed otherwise, in retrospect her results weren't that surprising. This however was the top of the year, when she looked as fit as she's looked since late '02 and her form was arguably the best at the tournament and had been serving and moving fantastically.


All good points (except for the delusional part of course ) but none of those points have anything to do with Serena's poor serving, crappy footwork (even in the early games which she won) or lack of fighting spirit. So while your points are good in a vaacuum, they're irrelevant to my question.
1. Serena didn't play well at the Hopman cup. She has looked fit, she had been serving well, but she hasn't moved well since 2003. Her footwork has always been a weakness (even when she was fast.) I saw a lot of "come ons" and Serena looked pissed when she lost. Her serving wasn't awful. She still had 4 aces and was at 56% first serves. Granted, it's not what she had been serving, but it wasn't like she was serving at 40% and 90MPH.

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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:46 AM
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Re: Jelena Better have won that Match...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mboyle View Post
I understand that Williams fans will be delusional because their emotional well being rests on the lie (formed when Serena had a brief, 1.5 year period of dominance in which it was almost true) that no one is good enough to beat Serena other than Serena herself. However, an unbiased analysis with its basis in facts (i.e. match statistics) reveals a far different picture.

What really happened is that Jankovic neutralized Serena's serve because she got most of them back really deep without much pace, allowing Jankovic to give Serena few free points on serve and also to get back to the center of the court. It was brilliant. From there, Jankovic kept the ball within a foot of the line on almost every shot, and did not miss. Jankovic had five more winners than UFEs. For a match of this caliber, that is very very solid indeed. But what's more striking, Jelena won 3 out of every 4 points when Serena put in a second serve. Serena's second delivery was rather slow, but so was Jelena's, yet Jelena managed to win 50% of second serve points. Jelena also capitalized on her break point opportunities--winning almost 50% of them. Against a player as mentally tough and with as big a serve as Serena, that's incredible and speaks volumes about Jelena's improved mental toughness.

But the biggest statistic that reveals that Serena was not nearly as big a factor as Jelena in this match's result, is the fact that Serena hit 34 winners to 36 UFEs--against a player as fast as Jankovic. Serena has won matches against top players with a -10 and even -15 numbers before. Granted, anytime a player is in the negatives, that does mean she's not zoning or playing her best, but anywhere within 5 of neutral shows that a player is playing well enough to win. Jelena was +5, so she was playing very well, but that was a bigger factor.

I think the truth is that Jelena's form of return takes away Serena's biggest advantage, and will until Serena becomes comfortable with serving and volleying.
Did we watch the same match? Serena's big serve? where was that for a set and 1/2 where her avg. 1st serve was under 100mph? Is a serve consistently udner 100 mph a big serve? IMO you lost all credibility when you said Serena was barely a better mover than Vaidisova.

Serena avg. 1st serve for hte match: 101 mph
Serena avg. 2nd serve for the match: 81 mph

So Jankovic was defending against a huge serve that was avg. 101 mph??? I don't think she's ever faced a bigger serve than 101mph and 98 mph for a set and 1/2.

Jankovic actually had a faster 2nd serve than Serena. How many time has Serena served so slow on her 2nd serve? Jankovic was really returning well against those bombs Serena was consistently throwing down.

Can the og. poster pm their secret theory please?

Last edited by starin; Jan 22nd, 2008 at 04:53 AM.
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