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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 16th, 2007, 08:58 PM Thread Starter
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Another one "Who is greater" thread

Ok, I'll take players from last 20 years with at least 5 GS titles

Here they are:

Steffi Graf
Monica Seles
Serena Williams
Justine Henin
Venus Williams
Martina Hingis

I'll use 7 categories to determine who's the greatest:

1.Sheer talent
2.Overall game
3.Athleticism
4.Mental strength
5.Work ethics
6.Accomplishments (I will use just number of GS in singles)
7.Respect from the media and general public

Sheer talent

1.Hingis 6 points
2.Henin 5
3.Graf 4
4.Venus 3
5.Seles 2
6.Serena 1

Overall Game

1.Henin 6
2.Venus 5
3.Graf 4
4.Hingis 3
5.Serena 2
6.Seles 1

Athleticism

1.Venus 6
2.Graf 5
3.Serena 4
4.Henin 3
5.Hingis 2
6.Seles 1

Mental strength

1.Seles 6
2.Graf 5
3.Serena 4
4.Henin 3
5.Venus 2
6.Hingis 1

Work ethics

1.Graf 6
2.Henin 5
3.Seles 4
4.Venus 3
5.Serena 2
6.Hingis 1

Accomplishments

1.Graf 6
2.Seles 5
3.Serena 4
4.Henin 3
5.Venus 2
6.Hingis 1

Respect from the media and general public

1.Graf 6
2.Seles 5
3.Venus 4
4.Serena 3
5.Henin 2
6.Hingis 1 (coke affair, othervise she would be higher)

Overall results

1.Graf 36
2.Henin 27
3.Venus 25
4.Seles 24
5.Serena 20
6.Hingis 15

Ok, I would love to see some other opininos and rankings, please imagine these players at their peak while doing it.

Remember, this is just for fun
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 16th, 2007, 09:12 PM
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Re: Another one "Who is greater" thread

i dont agree with sheer talent. Because Serena hits the ball hard, people assume she is just a ball basher with little talent. She couldnt have acheived all that she has without being naturally talented. If you say 'at their peak' then your overall game is well off. Serena could beat any-one of those at her best. I would say Henin has more respect from the media than Serena though. Agree with everything else

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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 16th, 2007, 09:19 PM
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Re: Another one "Who is greater" thread

I'd argue that Serena is more talented than Venus. Serena has a greater natural ability to hit the ball with variety, etc. Venus doesn't have that as much. She's got a great deal of talent, but she compensates for her lack (by comparison to, say, Hingis, Graf, Henin, etc.) by being a tremendous athlete. Many great players do; Navratilova did, Court did...it's not a bad thing, it's just a different approach.

And ree-and-ross, I disagree. I think Graf at her best beats anyone, still. I have yet to see anyone come close to matching what Graf can do on court in terms of sheer dominance, from the first point on. The only player who comes close in my mind is Venus, not Serena.
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 16th, 2007, 09:25 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Another one "Who is greater" thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ree-and-ross View Post
If you say 'at their peak' then your overall game is well off. Serena could beat any-one of those at her best.
Yeah, I agree, it's just that Serena doesn't have a solid net game
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 16th, 2007, 10:02 PM
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Re: Another one "Who is greater" thread

Sheer talent
1. Hingis (still the most natural striker of the ball I've ever seen, only Evert comes close but that's solely from the back of the court)
2. Serena (her actual talent is incredibly underrated, which is a shame because she has an innate ability to play tennis. If it weren't for that, she wouldn't be capable of winning slams in poor form)
3. Henin (she's got a lot of talent in that little body, but she wouldn't be able to succeed without the athleticism she's added to her game)
4. Graf (in my mind, the most stunning mix of talent and athletics in tennis history. She could do pretty much everything consistently but hit a reliable topspin backhand, and even that's arguable)
5. Venus Williams (not the most talented player by a long shot, but she's compensated remarkably well, and what she does know how to do, she does absolutely incredibly)
6. Seles (I still don't understand a lot of the fundamentals of Seles' game, but I do know that she wasn't a force of nature, she was a force of mental fortitude. her talent didn't get her by)

Overall game
1. begrudgingly, Henin (she's got a step up from Graf in only one department: topspin backhand. but that's a substantial step up)
2. Graf (everything anyone can do now, Graf could do better in '95. Except hit a topspin backhand)
3. Serena (once again, the subtlety of her game gets overlooked too often because she doesn't need to rely on it, but in 2002 and 2003, she could pull of shots that I didn't know were in anyone's repertoire anymore)
4. Hingis (she could and can do just about everything, but her power doesn't match the three above her. her stronger forehands resembled Graf's weaker backhands)
5. Venus (again, I think Venus plays a pretty one-dimensional game, but succeeds at it because she's a tremendous athlete. If Sharapova or Davenport could say the same thing, they'd have five slams by now)
6. Seles (awfully limited by those two handers off both sides, but like Venus, what she did do, she did well)

Athleticism
1. Venus (just barely edging out Graf, but Venus in the summer of 2000 and 2001 was a ferocious athlete. She would have succeeded in many other sports)
2. Graf (she ran an untrained 100m under 11 seconds. She was an absolutely natural athlete, and one of the only people who I'd say was physically ideal for tennis)
3. Serena (a slight notch down, she never quite had that natural athletic quality that Venus or Graf had, but she developed an athletic quality when she was at her peak)
4. Henin (she had to work at it too hard to break the three above her, but at least she achieved it)
5. Seles (when she was actually at her best, she wasn't as out of shape as we remember her from the later years. but she wasn't a natural athlete, she was just naturally competitive)
6. Hingis (not so much here. I consider hand-eye coordination a component of talent, so she doesn't even earn marks there)

Mental strength
1. Seles (hard to tell whether to put her below Graf or not, but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, because she did come back, even though not as well)
2. Graf (how many freaking times did she come back from a set down? she had absolute faith that, by playing her game, she would win)
3. Serena (DAMN, she has a catalogue of incredible fighting moments)
4. Henin (not as many fighting moments, and a few pathetic ones, but she's got enough to edge out Venus here)
5. Venus (not as many that jump to mind, but on the biggest stage, she showed incredible mental resilience. Return of service winner, match point down, Wimbledon final? who else has EVER done that?)
6. Hingis (when she was good, she didn't need to fight. Once she had to, she kind of lost her cool. She was mentally tought for a while, but it deteriorated in ways that the others never let happen)

Work ethics
1. Henin (she wouldn't have won anything if it weren't for her work ethic)
2. Graf (she came back from more surgeries than anyone I can think of, and won slams after them all, all by working her butt off to keep her athleticism at peak form)
3. Venus (her athleticism, coupled with this, is why she's a champion, and why she's so admirable)
4. Seles (when she was younger, she was a champ at the fitness component, because she had to. As she aged...it deteriorated)
5. Serena (I'd feel comfortable putting her above Seles, but not comfortable enough to move her there right now. in 2002-2003, she didn't need the work ethic because she was winning enough matches to stay match-fit. now, she needs more matches, or more work ethic, and she's not getting either)
6. Hingis (again, some of these categories are just KILLING Hingis)

Accomplishments: Singles + 1/2 Doubles + 1/3 Mixed + Bonus for 4 consecutive slam wins (doubles or singles)
1. Graf (her singles career is better than just about everyone else in this contest combined)
2. Serena (8 singles and 6 doubles, with two mixed? Yeah, that's well rounded, and a grand slam to boost!)
3. Hingis (that doubles run in '98 helped her a LOT)
4. Venus (doubles pushes her up substantially)
5. Seles (too bad she didn't play doubles, but somehow I don't think she'd be all that good. Her weapons aren't really doubles tools)
6. Henin (SHE could be a great doubles player, but she's good enough to succeed at singles, so who blames her for skipping out? she's too frail to do both, anyways)

Respect from the media and general public
1. Seles (she gets a free pass on just about everything, and justifiably so)
2. Graf (universally respected, although not really loved until she got old)
3. Venus (the current stateswoman of tennis)
4. Hingis (who doesn't love the legendary Hingis quotes? It didn't earn her friends, but it made her popular with journalists)
5. Henin (weird mixture of indifference in '03-'05, disgust in '06, and creepy love in '07)
6. Serena (pretty much lionized by media pretty much everywhere, although she doesn't do herself any favors by sounding conceited a lot of the time. But frankly, when you've won four consecutive slams, you earn the right to be a little conceited)

So overall, if you do the points the way you indicated (although I'm going to halve the "respect" points because I think they're BS)

1. Graf (31.5
2. Serena (24.5)
3. Henin (24)
4. Venus (21)
5. Seles (18)
6. Hingis (17.5)
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 16th, 2007, 11:16 PM
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Re: Another one "Who is greater" thread

I like what you are trying to do, but its hard to say who is greatest when most of these people are still playing. Also, this just goes on what one person thinks.

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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 16th, 2007, 11:23 PM
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Re: Another one "Who is greater" thread

A few things I disagree with....

Serena is no way at the bottom of the sheer talent list. I'd put her 2nd under Hingis.

Seles and Graf had the best work ethic.

I'm not sure respect from the media matters at all.

This list is a nice idea but of course has no reference to who are the greatest players of the last 20 years.
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 16th, 2007, 11:28 PM
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Re: Another one "Who is greater" thread

how ridiculous
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 16th, 2007, 11:31 PM
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Re: Another one "Who is greater" thread

I don't think this is a fair way to evaluate. Too subjective and certain categories should be weighted more. I would also include Lindsay (she would lose in the "accomplishments" category, but she deserves to be in the evaluation). If I use your format I come up with...

Sheer talent

1. Graf 6
2. Hingis 5
3. Venus 4
4. Henin 3
5. Serena 2
6. Seles 1

Overall Game

1. Graf 6
2. Venus 5
3. Hingis 4
4. Serena 3
5. Henin 2
6. Seles 1

Athleticism

1.Venus 6
2.Graf 5
3.Serena 4
4.Henin 3
5.Hingis 2
6.Seles 1

Mental strength

1. Seles 6
2. Venus 5
3. Serena 4
4. Graf 3
5. Henin 2
6. Hingis 1

Work ethics

1. Seles 6
2. Graf 5
3. Hingis 4
4. Venus 3
5. Henin 2
6. Serena 1

Accomplishments

1. Graf 6
2. Seles/Serena 5 - tie
4. Henin/Venus 3 - tie
6. Hingis 1

Respect from the media and general public

1. Seles 6
2. Graf 5
3. Venus 4
4. Hingis 3
5. Henin 2
6. Serena 1

Overall results

Graf 36
Venus 30
Seles 26
Serena 20
Henin 17
Hingis 17

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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 16th, 2007, 11:59 PM
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Re: Another one "Who is greater" thread

LOL. I know you just did not totally give such a biased Venus judgment. Get off of this thread if you can't be objective. No way Venus mental toughness and talent is better than Serena's. Worthless.
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 17th, 2007, 12:35 AM
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Re: Another one "Who is greater" thread

Graf is so far the greatest player ever. Why can't people just accept that and stop making these threads? It's always the whining "boo hoo seles could have been this and that boo hoo" people or something to that effect that dispute it. GET. OVER. IT!

When Justine or Serena win 22 GS and Olympic gold we can hold the debate. Or if Hingis comes back again and wins 17 more slams with her "sheer talent".
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 17th, 2007, 12:39 AM
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Re: Another one "Who is greater" thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfselesfan View Post
I don't think this is a fair way to evaluate. Too subjective and certain categories should be weighted more. I would also include Lindsay (she would lose in the "accomplishments" category, but she deserves to be in the evaluation). If I use your format I come up with...

Sheer talent

1. Graf 6
2. Hingis 5
3. Venus 4
4. Henin 3
5. Serena 2
6. Seles 1

Overall Game

1. Graf 6
2. Venus 5
3. Hingis 4
4. Serena 3
5. Henin 2
6. Seles 1

Athleticism

1.Venus 6
2.Graf 5
3.Serena 4
4.Henin 3
5.Hingis 2
6.Seles 1

Mental strength

1. Seles 6
2. Venus 5
3. Serena 4
4. Graf 3
5. Henin 2
6. Hingis 1

Work ethics

1. Seles 6
2. Graf 5
3. Hingis 4
4. Venus 3
5. Henin 2
6. Serena 1

Accomplishments

1. Graf 6
2. Seles/Serena 5 - tie
4. Henin/Venus 3 - tie
6. Hingis 1

Respect from the media and general public

1. Seles 6
2. Graf 5
3. Venus 4
4. Hingis 3
5. Henin 2
6. Serena 1

Overall results

Graf 36
Venus 30
Seles 26
Serena 20
Henin 17
Hingis 17

SF
Mental strength

1. Seles 6
2. Venus 5
3. Serena 4
4. Graf 3
5. Henin 2
6. Hingis 1

One of the most delusional rankings i have ever seen.

Graf should be on top of this list for instance, and Venus way lower.
Just this year Venus has lost 4 matches due to choking jobs , while Steffi on her part was a master on turning around grand slam finals. Oh well

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Sabatini vs Martinez ?
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Straight Seasons in the top ten: Sabatini 10 Conchita 6
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 17th, 2007, 01:01 AM
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Re: Another one "Who is greater" thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by spencercarlos View Post
Mental strength

1. Seles 6
2. Venus 5
3. Serena 4
4. Graf 3
5. Henin 2
6. Hingis 1

One of the most delusional rankings i have ever seen.

Graf should be on top of this list for instance, and Venus way lower.
Just this year Venus has lost 4 matches due to choking jobs , while Steffi on her part was a master on turning around grand slam finals. Oh well
lol...yeah.. if anything Id say
1. Seles
2. Graf
3. Serena
4. Hingis
5 Venus/ Henin (Tie) Henin and Venus have done their fair share of choking..... and i would put Henin ahead of Venus, but her choke against Bartoli this year on her "best" year... Venus didnt do that during her "best" year...

I also like anyone who doesnt put Serena last on work ethic... All anyone needs to do is watch their reality program to see that.
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 17th, 2007, 01:10 AM
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Re: Another one "Who is greater" thread

Well we all know sfselesfan is a dumbass, but I expected him to at least be realistic.
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 17th, 2007, 01:18 AM
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Re: Another one "Who is greater" thread

How any list can put Henin and Venus above Seles is beyond me. It's a nice try though. I disagree with putting Henin's game above Graf's, Seles's or Serena's. I really don't understand that. Anyway, i'll give my own faulty opinion

Sheer talent

1.Hingis 6 points
2.Graf 5
3.Henin 4
4.Seles 3
5.Serena 2
6.Venus 1

Overall Game

1.Graf 6
2.Serena 5
3.Seles 4
4.Hingis 3
5.Henin 2
6.Venus 1

Athleticism

1.Venus 6
2.Serena 5
3.Graf 4
4.Henin 3
5.Hingis 2
6.Seles 1

Mental strength

1.Graf 6
2.Seles 5
3.Serena 4
4.Venus 3
5.Henin 2
6.Hingis 1

Work ethics

1.Graf 6
2.Henin 5
3.Serena 4 (we forget how hard she worked to get to 2002 form)
4.Seles 3
5.Hingis 2
6.Venus 1

Accomplishments

1.Graf 6
2.Seles 5
3.Serena 4
4.Henin 3
5.Venus 2
6.Hingis 1

Respect from the media and general public: I won't include this, i think it's kind of weird.

-----------------
Graf-33
Serena-24
Seles-21
Henin-19
Hingis-15
Venus-14

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