Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"? - TennisForum.com

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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2007, 12:46 AM Thread Starter
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Question Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"?

I'm wondering how you personally measure depth on the WTA tour.

Look at the winners and runners-up for the all Grand Slams in the 00's.

Quote:
2000
AO - DAVENPORT def. Hingis
FO - PIERCE def. Martinez
W - V. WILLIAMS def. Davenport
US - V. WILLIAMS def. Davenport

2001
AO - CAPRIATIdef. Hingis
FO - CAPRIATI def. Clijsters
W - V. WILLIAMS def. Henin
US - V. WILLIAMS def. S. Williams

2002
AO - CAPRIATI def. Hingis
FO - S.WILLIAMS def. V. Williams
W - S. WILLIAMS def. V. Williams
US - S. WILLIAMS def. V. Williams

2003
AO - S. WILLLIAMS def. V. Williams
FO - HENIN-HARDENNE def. Clijsters
W - S. WILLIAMS def. V. Williams
US - HENIN-HARDENNE def. Clijsters

2004
AO - HENIN-HARDENNE def. Clijsters
FO - MYSKINA def. Dementieva
W - SHARAPOVA def. S. Williams
US - KUZNETSOVA def. Dementieva

2005
AO - S. WILLLIAMS def. Davenport
FO - HENIN-HARDENNE def. Pierce
W - V. WILLIAMS def. Davenport
US - CLIJSTERS def. Pierce

2006
AO - MAURESMO def. Henin-Hardenne
FO - HENIN-HARDENNE def. Kuznetsova
W - MAURESMO def. Henin-Hardenne
US - SHARAPOVA def. Henin-Hardenne

2007
AO - S. WILLIAMS def. Sharapova
FO - HENIN def. Ivanovic
W - V. WILLIAMS def. Bartoli
US - HENIN def. Kuznetsova
32 Slams contested by 15 players. Of the 15, Martinez, Myskina, Ivanovic and Bartoli played in only 1 final apiece.

In your opinion, do these numbers indicate that there's depth? Yes, no, maybe so?

Personally, just looking at the winners and losers year by year suggests that there isn't depth. I'd like to see more years like 2004 but then again I like to see the wealth spread around.

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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2007, 12:59 AM
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Re: Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"?

Davenport didn't make the '01 USO final
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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2007, 01:02 AM
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Re: Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"?

You can't tell just from those numbers. Especially since the tour was drastically different 2000-2003, 2004-2006 and now another period where hopefully, we see healthy WS and Henin.

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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2007, 01:10 AM
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Re: Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"?

I never liked the idea of depth, in relation to the gap between the top players and everyone else.

If you were to remove Justine, Serena and Venus from the mix at slams (which basically happened for most of 2004) you'd see a lot more slam winners and finalists.
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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2007, 01:12 AM
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Re: Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"?

Look at the results from 2002 RG to 2004 A0. Only two players won the GSs and they had to beat the same opponent in the final during that period.

Serena won 5 GSs - Had to beat Venus in all five finals
Justine won three - Had to beat Kim.
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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2007, 01:13 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"?

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Originally Posted by MH0861 View Post
Davenport didn't make the '01 USO final
Thanks!

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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2007, 01:14 AM
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Re: Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"?

Don't want to be a pain, but Justine won 2007 RG and USO as Henin, not Henin-Hardenne. That reminds me of the USO Ceremony!
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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2007, 01:14 AM
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Re: Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"?

There's depth, but you're expecting quality just because of quantity. The two aren't always necessarily equal.
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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2007, 01:16 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by donnydarko View Post
I never liked the idea of depth, in relation to the gap between the top players and everyone else.

If you were to remove Justine, Serena and Venus from the mix at slams (which basically happened for most of 2004) you'd see a lot more slam winners and finalists.
That's precisely the point that WTA critics regularly make. There would be depth IF dominant players weren't on the tour.

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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2007, 01:18 AM
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Re: Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"?

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
That's precisely the point that WTA critics regularly make. There would be depth IF dominant players weren't on the tour.
Yes, I agree!
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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2007, 01:19 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeeemZ View Post
Look at the results from 2002 RG to 2004 A0. Only two players won the GSs and they had to beat the same opponent in the final during that period.

Serena won 5 GSs - Had to beat Venus in all five finals
Justine won three - Had to beat Kim.
A solid argument for the "no depth" stance.

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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2007, 01:20 AM
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Re: Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"?

So Elena's part of only 11 women to contest in more than one slam final since 2000? I'll take it!

Plenty of the semifinalists or quarterfinalists in many of those events were/are rising stars, it's just the strongest usually eek into the final. There's more depth to the WTA than those finals would say. Most of the women listed who have won the titles most frequently lose plenty outside the grand slams, which in itself must mean SOME depth.
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2007, 01:24 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceSkaTennisFan View Post
There's depth, but you're expecting quality just because of quantity. The two aren't always necessarily equal.
I agree with you. I just think it's revealing and a bit sad as well because it seems that women's tennis will always be like this i.e. an elite group of players who'll win Slams and then everyone else. The non-elite group really love the sport because they have to believe or accept the stats at some point that they will never win a singles Slam. I know that I personally couldn't live with that fact and would retire after giving it a try for a couple of years.

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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2007, 01:29 AM
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Re: Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"?

This is my theory on the differences in depth between the ATP and WTA.

On the ATP, all the men are (relatively) equal skillwise. Anyone in the top 100 is capable of hitting good shots, good serves, etc. The biggest difference between the top ten and everyone else is mental- the top ten chokes, tanks, etc. less than the rest. Take someone like James Blake. A top fifty player, who makes a comeback, gets his mind and tactics in order, and become four in the world. Or Fernando Gonzalez. A guy who couldn't hit inside the lines before makes it to the AO finals.

Even in the top 3 this is evidence. In the USO final, Djokovic was outplaying Fed for a lot of the match. He just choked on the big points.


On the WTA, even the top women are prone to lapses. So the main difference between the top ten and every other player is skill- the top five women are simply better than the rest, and they win- easily- over lower ranked opponents.

So, logically speaking, it's easier for a ATP to have a "good day" than it is for a WTA player to obtain skills she's never had before, which is why the top female players almost always win.
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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2007, 02:08 AM
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Re: Does this equate to "yes, there's depth on the WTA tour"?

womens seems to have more depth than ATP nowadays.

Its funny how for years the critics were like womens lack depth and its always the same players contesting slams yet when the same happens to mens its exciting in their opinion.

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