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post #1 of 66 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 2007, 07:21 PM Thread Starter
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US Open: Henin def Venus - What does Venus do now?

Well, I'm finally over it. I HATE when Venus loses, but this one affected me a little differently.

First off, Henin played very well. She earned that win. (And she didn't look at Carlos every point, and I didn't see him doing any coaching.)

Looking forward, I have to ask myself if Venus is going to beat Justine Henin if Henin plays like that, which she will. And I don't like the answer much. I see three needful changes for Venus to beat Henin if Venus isn't at the absolute top of her game.
1) Better footwork on serve recieve. Venus has trouble with fast serves into her body.

Odds of Venus working on this? Very high. She's commented on it.

2) Develop a first serve that goes in consistently. Being able to serve 125 mph is nice, but if you're only winning 39% of your second serve points, you have to have a high first serve percentage. 110 mph with a 80% first serve percentage is better than 125 mph and a 60% first serve percentage if the opponent wins 60% of the time on your second serve. Maybe she's GOT such a serve, and just doesn't use it.

Odds of Venus working on this? Not that high.

3) Serve recieve. BACK UP. This is how Venus lost slam final after slam final to Serena. She stands on the baseline and challenges the server. And Henin won something like four service games at love. Yes Venus broke her serve three times, but that's only useful if Venus is holding her own serve.

Odds of Venus working on this? Well, has Hell frozen over yet?
So what do I see going forward? Henin winning more Venus when they go head-to-head. I don't like it, and I think Venus has the necessary shots and athleticism, but I don't see her changing how she recieves serve, and I don't really see her changing how she serves. That was the kind of loss that can convince you that the only thing wrong was that you didn't play better. I don't see it that way. I think Venus needs to be a bit more willing to change how she plays.

She can do this. She didn't used to come to net at all. Against Jankovic, she came to net 55 times in 213 points. One out of every four, basically. But that change was a long time comin'.

Will she do it? I really don't think so. Especially where serve-receive is concerned. I think Venus is going to beat Henin when Venus is playing her very best, and Venus is going to lose all the other times.

I'm sure this has all been discussed to death, but I haven't been able to bring myself to read any of the threads. This is just getting the match off my chest, so to speak.

Anyway, guess I'll be marking time til OZ. Congrats to Henin.

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post #2 of 66 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 2007, 07:27 PM
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Re: US Open: Henin def Venus - What does Venus do now?

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3) Serve recieve. BACK UP. This is how Venus lost slam final after slam final to Serena. She stands on the baseline and challenges the server. And Henin won something like four service games at love. Yes Venus broke her serve three times, but that's only useful if Venus is holding her own serve.

Odds of Venus working on this? Well, has Hell frozen over yet?
It seemed like the games where she did break Henin, she had finally realized to back up a bit, and the commentators did say something about this. She knows how to do it, just a matter of doing it consistently.

"I knew I had it in me. And I knew if I fought hard enough, and I kept fighting, even if I kept falling, I was going to get up and do it."


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post #3 of 66 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 2007, 07:35 PM
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Re: US Open: Henin def Venus - What does Venus do now?

There was no sight more frustrating that Venus hovering at the baseline to return Justine's serve, only to have a serve come right at her body, with her mishitting or shanking. If these were 120 mph serves, that be understandable- but she was dumping makeable returns into the net.

And as for the serve- she should work on the technique. On first AND second. Getting only about half of your first serves in simply is not good enough for someone 6' 1". Especially considering she's managed getting up close to eighty percent at Wimbledon.

But I think the main reason she lost is that she wasn't hitting hard enough. In her matches at Wimbledon, her groundstrokes were like laserbeams. She put far too much spin on her shots- yet somehow, made lots or errors.
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post #4 of 66 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 2007, 07:35 PM
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Re: US Open: Henin def Venus - What does Venus do now?

That's NOT what i like to hear. I'm a little more optimistic. I thought Venus' return of serve was improving throughout the match, mostly because she was starting to read it better. She was having trouble at the start.

Focusing on that first set, she needs to improve her net skills. Time after time she left some balls that fell in, did not do enough with her volleys when she could have, even smashed the ball soft to Henin - then you look at Henin's smash.

I don't feel there was a huge gulf between the two of them, they went toe to toe for the most part. It was 7-6 in that first set after all. I think the most important thing for Venus is to play more matches. It's nice to have 2/3 good runs in the year, but if she can get more match tight - she'll be less likely to start off so tentative as she did (getting broken after spraying errors).

I think we have to wait for their next encounter. They haven't played each other so long, you need time to get a feel for the opponent and their new game. I think we should only really start losing sleep about it, if Venus loses 3 times in a row on different surfaces like she did against Jelena.

But we'll see.
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post #5 of 66 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 2007, 07:38 PM
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Re: US Open: Henin def Venus - What does Venus do now?

Also, i guess then people agree that Sharapova's win over Henin last year was a fluke - it must be, because she was able to over power Henin, playing the way i'm acustomed to watching Venus play.

Of that match, Justine stated that Maria served well and that was the key factor. Justine returns well, but Venus can serve better than she did.
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post #6 of 66 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 2007, 07:43 PM
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Re: US Open: Henin def Venus - What does Venus do now?

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Originally Posted by Volcana View Post
Well, I'm finally over it. I HATE when Venus loses, but this one affected me a little differently.

First off, Henin played very well. She earned that win. (And she didn't look at Carlos every point, and I didn't see him doing any coaching.)


Looking forward, I have to ask myself if Venus is going to beat Justine Henin if Henin plays like that, which she will. And I don't like the answer much. I see three needful changes for Venus to beat Henin if Venus isn't at the absolute top of her game.
1) Better footwork on serve recieve. Venus has trouble with fast serves into her body.
Odds of Venus working on this? Very high. She's commented on it.
2) Develop a first serve that goes in consistently. Being able to serve 125 mph is nice, but if you're only winning 39% of your second serve points, you have to have a high first serve percentage. 110 mph with a 80% first serve percentage is better than 125 mph and a 60% first serve percentage if the opponent wins 60% of the time on your second serve. Maybe she's GOT such a serve, and just doesn't use it.
Odds of Venus working on this? Not that high.
3) Serve recieve. BACK UP. This is how Venus lost slam final after slam final to Serena. She stands on the baseline and challenges the server. And Henin won something like four service games at love. Yes Venus broke her serve three times, but that's only useful if Venus is holding her own serve.
Odds of Venus working on this? Well, has Hell frozen over yet?
So what do I see going forward? Henin winning more Venus when they go head-to-head. I don't like it, and I think Venus has the necessary shots and athleticism, but I don't see her changing how she recieves serve, and I don't really see her changing how she serves. That was the kind of loss that can convince you that the only thing wrong was that you didn't play better. I don't see it that way. I think Venus needs to be a bit more willing to change how she plays.

She can do this. She didn't used to come to net at all. Against Jankovic, she came to net 55 times in 213 points. One out of every four, basically. But that change was a long time comin'.

Will she do it? I really don't think so. Especially where serve-receive is concerned. I think Venus is going to beat Henin when Venus is playing her very best, and Venus is going to lose all the other times.

I'm sure this has all been discussed to death, but I haven't been able to bring myself to read any of the threads. This is just getting the match off my chest, so to speak.

Anyway, guess I'll be marking time til OZ. Congrats to Henin.
You seem to be really negative about this whole thing. Sure, venus came into wimbledon and played some of the best tennis she's ever played but you can't expect her to do exactly the same thing. Grass is the only surface where she knows she is waay better than the rest, even serena. On hard, shes not done much since 02 due to injuries and stuff. She started to get confidence and since wimbledon, shes played her best hardcourt tennis since 01. Sure, she should have beaten chakvetadze and if she'd played as well as she knows she could, she would have beaten her as well. Venus didnt play a terrible match, She didnt play well but it would have been enough to beat the 126 other players in the draw that day. Henin is the number one player and on fire too. Henin was on fire and even though she was playing a venus who wasnt playing to well, was it one sided? no. Did henin overpower Venus? no. In the end it came down to confidence and match play. As long as venus stays healthy, come AO, she will have more confidence and will be more match tough. This is venus. I believe she is a better player than henin and even serena (sorry serena!) I'll never forget the things that martina said about venus' game. Venus can do anything. Sure henin is quite a complete player and same with serena but venus is just a bit more complete imo. Im glad she's started to show it. Believe in venus, you saw how venus was unexpectedly happy after that match. Why? Because she knows that big things will come in the near future. So do I. Prepare for Venus to take the world by storm in the end of 07 (YEC) and 08. 08 could be the year that people think of HER as the GOAT. I really hope so.
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post #7 of 66 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 2007, 07:46 PM
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Re: US Open: Henin def Venus - What does Venus do now?

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
That's NOT what i like to hear. I'm a little more optimistic. I thought Venus' return of serve was improving throughout the match, mostly because she was starting to read it better. She was having trouble at the start.

Focusing on that first set, she needs to improve her net skills. Time after time she left some balls that fell in, did not do enough with her volleys when she could have, even smashed the ball soft to Henin - then you look at Henin's smash.

I don't feel there was a huge gulf between the two of them, they went toe to toe for the most part. It was 7-6 in that first set after all. I think the most important thing for Venus is to play more matches. It's nice to have 2/3 good runs in the year, but if she can get more match tight - she'll be less likely to start off so tentative as she did (getting broken after spraying errors).

I think we have to wait for their next encounter. They haven't played each other so long, you need time to get a feel for the opponent and their new game. I think we should only really start losing sleep about it, if Venus loses 3 times in a row on different surfaces like she did against Jelena.

But we'll see.
agreed. You summed it up perfectly.
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post #8 of 66 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 2007, 07:53 PM
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Re: US Open: Henin def Venus - What does Venus do now?

Also, consider Venus is not as match tight as Henin. Henin's been playing and beating the top players consistently for a LONG while now. Her results in 2006 and 2007 speak for themselves. Til recently, Venus could barely get a top 10 win. She's now juts gotten back some good form, and hopefully she can start to build up that big match tightness.

I think the nerves she had at the start may have cost her big. She played one bad game at the start and was on the back foot and had to work so hard to get back into it and compete, expending losts of energy. She then had chances in that second to go up 4-3 with a break, but then there was dizziness and Anemia woes.

I don't think she's in too much of a dilema.
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post #9 of 66 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 2007, 07:54 PM
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Re: US Open: Henin def Venus - What does Venus do now?

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Originally Posted by -Tutu- View Post
agreed. You summed it up perfectly.
No you I was just about to good rep you for you post above, i agreed totally.
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post #10 of 66 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 2007, 07:56 PM
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Re: US Open: Henin def Venus - What does Venus do now?

One match will not make or breaf Venus' career, or her career outlook. When Venus gets her anemia under control she will be just fine.

Justine was playing sterling tennis until she got Bartoli'd.
Maria dropped just 3 games or something like that before getting bounced by a relative unknown.


All this Justine is going to run away w/the tour stuff is much ado about nothing.

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"And for the best of the teen-agers who followed her, and who occasionally referred to her as over the hill, Graf had a ready answer: against top-ranked Martina Hingis, Graf wound up 7-2. Graf's stirring 4-6, 7-5, 6-2 throttling of Hingis at the French Open final this June was perhaps the most emphatic parting shot the game has ever seen. "


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post #11 of 66 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 2007, 07:59 PM
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Re: US Open: Henin def Venus - What does Venus do now?

I think it's harsh to say she'll lose whenever she's not playing her best. Depends on the surface also. I think Venus doesnt need to be at her best on grass to beat Henin. On hardcourt, I think if Henin is at her best and Venus at her best, it's a coin toss.

The difference is Henin seems to be able to raise her level whenever she wants or needs to. She's amazingly consistent which is why she will most likely catch and surpass Serena and why she has been putting up Federer-like numbers. Venus doesn't seem to be able to summon that level She's too inconsistent and I dont know what would cure that. More match play?

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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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post #12 of 66 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 2007, 08:16 PM
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Re: US Open: Henin def Venus - What does Venus do now?

venus is gonna be fine.
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post #13 of 66 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 2007, 08:16 PM
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Re: US Open: Henin def Venus - What does Venus do now?

The way to beat Henin is if someone does'nt think(no pressure) and consistently hit a hard groundstroke deep. Nothing More. Henin can get toe for toe to anything except for hitting groudstrokes deep and hard in the baseline.

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post #14 of 66 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 2007, 08:36 PM
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Re: US Open: Henin def Venus - What does Venus do now?

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I think it's harsh to say she'll lose whenever she's not playing her best. Depends on the surface also. I think Venus doesnt need to be at her best on grass to beat Henin. On hardcourt, I think if Henin is at her best and Venus at her best, it's a coin toss.

The difference is Henin seems to be able to raise her level whenever she wants or needs to. She's amazingly consistent which is why she will most likely catch and surpass Serena and why she has been putting up Federer-like numbers. Venus doesn't seem to be able to summon that level She's too inconsistent and I dont know what would cure that. More match play?
put the pipe down

Venus beats Henin on any surface when both are at or near their best. French Open would be only place i'd give Justine an edge.

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post #15 of 66 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 2007, 08:38 PM
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Re: US Open: Henin def Venus - What does Venus do now?

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put the pipe down

Venus beats Henin on any surface when both are at or near their best. French Open would be only place i'd give Justine an edge.
And what evidence points to that?

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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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