Greatest active players: Serena trumps Jennifer - TennisForum.com

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post #1 of 164 (permalink) Old Jul 6th, 2002, 11:45 PM Thread Starter
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Greatest active players: Serena trumps Jennifer

1. Monica Seles
2. Martina Hingis
3. Venus Williams
4. Arantxa Sanchez Vicario
5. Lindsay Davenport
6. Serena Williams
7. Jennifer Capriati
8. Mary Pierce
9. Conchita Martinez
10. Iva Majoli

Some notes:

4 slam winners: Venus Williams has a far far far superior head to head against top players compared to Arantxa. That's the big factor.

3 Slam winners: Lindsay has a ton of regular titles, a ton of weeks at #1, and some good doubles results. Serena has basically everything on Jen. More titles, far superior doubles results, more prize money, better head to heads, Slams on 3 different surfaces, and in half the time.

Iva Majoli: Objectively, she has done more than any non Slam winner, keeping in mind that her career is nearing a decade.
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post #2 of 164 (permalink) Old Jul 6th, 2002, 11:56 PM
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I don't agree. You have listed the one thing where Arantxa is *maybe* worse off than Venus. To mention a few other things: Arantxa has more titles (both in singles and in doubles), has been N.1 in doubles and singles at the same time, has won 10 GS in doubles (Venus has won 6), has participated in 4 Olympics and won 4 Olympic medals (2 in singles and 2 in doubles), has won 5 Fed Cup titles, has had a career at the very top of the game for over a decade.

If you are listing people based on number of GS and then telling them apart by other factors, Arantxa has as many GS as Venus and her career aside from that exceeds that of Venus up to this point.


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post #3 of 164 (permalink) Old Jul 6th, 2002, 11:57 PM
 
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Re: ASV (well, until Venus wins another slam).

Although I can't argue with record against top players I think that it is influenced by how many years she's been playing since she last was in GS winning form.

Surely ASV belongs above Venus if you consider how many GS finals she's reached as well. Also her doubles are better.

Of course, there's no disputing who will be the greater player at the end of their careers.
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post #4 of 164 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 2002, 12:13 AM Thread Starter
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I knew there would be opposition to that one. I stand by it.

Arantxa has 29 singles titles. Venus is 8 and a half years younger and has 25.

Venus worst record against anyone is 9-10 against Martina, 9-10 against Lindsay. Arantxa is 2-17 against Martina Hingis, 3-21 against Monica Seles, 8-29 against Steffi Graf, and 3-12 against Martina Navratilova. Yes, it is difficult to compare generations, but Arantxa has been dominated in one sided fashion by someone much older than her, someone barely older than her, someone barely younger than her, and someone much younger than her.

Plus, Venus has had some very good oppostion. Arantxa's peak was in 1994 and the first half of 95. A Dark Age.

You have to answer for Santino, Carlo.
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post #5 of 164 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 2002, 12:22 AM
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Disposable, do players who have won more slams, immediately get a higher ranking. Because outside of Mary's two GS wins to her 1, it is very hard to rate Conchita below her - More titles, More Prizemoney, More years in top 10, higher career high ranking, superior record in majors overall, superior fed cup record, superior doubles record etc...

Also majoli's #10 spot must be in contention to a player like coetzer. Iva has only ever reached one (1) GS Semifinal - the year she won roland garros.
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post #6 of 164 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 2002, 12:29 AM Thread Starter
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tennisaddict, not necessarily. In this case Mary is clearly below all the 3 Slam winners, but I would place her ahead of Conchita. That one is certainly open to debate, however, as you are correct that Conchita is superior in several aspects.

You have to answer for Santino, Carlo.
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post #7 of 164 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 2002, 12:34 AM
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Disposable, just a question, who did you rate as superior before the French Open 2000 (career wise), for me it was Conchita. Mary's win narrowed the gap, but Conchita is just too far ahead in every other aspect of achievement to be rated below Mary.
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post #8 of 164 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 2002, 12:35 AM Thread Starter
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Also, I definitely considered putting Amanda in Iva's spot, but she has never even been IN a GS Final, and has 8 career singles titles, same as Iva. And of course Iva did it considerably quicker. I also considered Kim, Justine, and Amelie for that spot, but it is hard to justify when none of them have been above #3, and they onloy have about the same number of titles as her.

You have to answer for Santino, Carlo.
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post #9 of 164 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 2002, 12:37 AM Thread Starter
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Oh, before 2000 RG, Conchita, no question. Mary had done slightly better against top players overall, but Conchita had many other things on her side.

You have to answer for Santino, Carlo.
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post #10 of 164 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 2002, 12:42 AM Thread Starter
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The other thing is, Conchita and Mary are contemporaries, only about 3 years apart in age so their record against each other is far more significant than say Arantxa vs Serena would be. Mary leads that 11-6.

You have to answer for Santino, Carlo.
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post #11 of 164 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 2002, 12:42 AM
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disposable of course your rankings are completely valid, but their are always points of contention. tHere's no fun without debate . Mary CAN be rated above Conchita, but really it is a matter of what you prioritise most.

Last edited by {{{RoB}}}; Jul 7th, 2002 at 12:48 AM.
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post #12 of 164 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 2002, 12:43 AM
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What's happening DH-I find I agree with you more and more

Mary CAN be rated ahead of Conchita when head to heads are taken into consideration. Pierce has several wins over Graf, Seles, or any other player we care to name. Conchita has horrible head to heads vs the same names. Mary herself is 11-6 vs. Conchita.

Gallofa-while you consider the Olympic medals ASV has as points in her favor, to me it actually makes the case for Venus. Sanchez hasn't done what Venus did, which was win a gold medal.
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post #13 of 164 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 2002, 12:57 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by tennisaddict.
disposable of course your rankings are completely valid, but their are always points of contention. tHere's no fun without debate . Mary CAN be rated above Conchita, but really it is a matter of what you prioritise most.
What do you mean there is no fun without debate? I've had sex without debate and it was lots of fun.
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post #14 of 164 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 2002, 01:07 AM
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I think its a fair analysis...well done.

~ gonna teach you tricks that'll blow your mongrel mind ~
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post #15 of 164 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 2002, 01:08 AM
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lol@disposable

well let's just say, there is no fun on the board without debate
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