Davenport/Hingis vs. Venus/Serena - Best '4-Person' Rivalry Ever?! - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 50 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 2005, 07:31 AM Thread Starter
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Davenport/Hingis vs. Venus/Serena - Best '4-Person' Rivalry Ever?!

These four greats have shown us something special ever since 1997. Look at their records through the years, going from 1997 to 2002, until Hingis' retirement:

1997
Davenport/Hingis vs. V.Williams/S.Williams - 6/0


1998
Davenport/Hingis vs. V.Williams/S.Williams - 9/4

1999
Davenport/Hingis vs. V.Williams/S.Williams - 7/11

2000
Davenport/Hingis vs. V.Williams/S.Williams - 3/7

2001
Davenport/Hingis vs. V.Williams/S.Williams - 3/7

2002
Davenport/Hingis vs. V.Williams/S.Williams - 0/6


The years coloured in red are the years they played, but there was not much of a rivalry going on. I counted their four "prime years" from 1998 to 2001. During this time, Venus and Serena led their rivalry 29/24.

What made their rivalry so special and competitive?

To make it more of a contest, let's count their four "prime years".

Let them eat cake.
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post #2 of 50 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 2005, 07:44 AM
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The thing is, Serena pretty much dominated Davenport. So I don't know if I'd call them a rivalry. Davenport only occasionally defeated Martina. But Venus/Lindsay/Martina had a great three way rivalry.

hunger, desire, fire..........
stength, power, precision.........
talent, court sense, smartness........
no i am not talking about a racket or a squirrel, i am talking about the former and future number 1..............
martina hingis!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good Luck Justine Henin Hardenne, Venus Williams, Maria Sharapova, Mary Pierce, and any of my other favorites that I might have forgotten about at this moment.
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post #3 of 50 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 2005, 07:52 AM
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You know what's really interesting. Serena never defeated Hingis outside of the U.S. Hingis won all 4 times they played outside the U.S. However, when they were on U.S soil, Serena was 7-2 against Hingis.

hunger, desire, fire..........
stength, power, precision.........
talent, court sense, smartness........
no i am not talking about a racket or a squirrel, i am talking about the former and future number 1..............
martina hingis!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good Luck Justine Henin Hardenne, Venus Williams, Maria Sharapova, Mary Pierce, and any of my other favorites that I might have forgotten about at this moment.
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post #4 of 50 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 2005, 07:57 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franny
You know what's really interesting. Serena never defeated Hingis outside of the U.S. Hingis won all 4 times they played outside the U.S. However, when they were on U.S soil, Serena was 7-2 against Hingis.
That's not very interesting, really. I mean, Hingis still beat Serena in the USA.

I think it was Venus vs. Martina who never beat each other in their home places - Martina always beat Venus in the USA, until 2000. Venus always beat Martina outside of the USA, until 2001. I think that's how it worked.

Let them eat cake.
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post #5 of 50 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 2005, 08:01 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franny
The thing is, Serena pretty much dominated Davenport. So I don't know if I'd call them a rivalry. Davenport only occasionally defeated Martina. But Venus/Lindsay/Martina had a great three way rivalry.
Lindsay always beat Martina - she led their H2H. Even though Lindsay wasn't really able to beat Serena, consistently, they still played incredible matches that made an amazing rivalry.

'98 Sydney - Serena def. Lindsay 16 75 75
'99 New York - Serena def. Lindsay 64 16 64
'00 LA - Serena def. Lindsay 46 64 76
'01 New York - Serena def. Lindsay 63 67 75

I mean, Lindsay had amazing chances in all of these matches. I think she was up 61 52 (and matchpoints) in that first match in Sydney. I believe she had matchpoints in LA and the New York match was arguably the Best Power Match of All-Time.

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post #6 of 50 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 2005, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTL
Lindsay always beat Martina - she led their H2H. Even though Lindsay wasn't really able to beat Serena, consistently, they still played incredible matches that made an amazing rivalry.

'98 Sydney - Serena def. Lindsay 16 75 75
'99 New York - Serena def. Lindsay 64 16 64
'00 LA - Serena def. Lindsay 46 64 76
'01 New York - Serena def. Lindsay 63 67 75

I mean, Lindsay had amazing chances in all of these matches. I think she was up 61 52 (and matchpoints) in that first match in Sydney. I believe she had matchpoints in LA and the New York match was arguably the Best Power Match of All-Time.
Lindsay didn't always beat Martina. Though she lead their head to head, there was never a point where their head to head was highly in favor of one player. In the end, it was 14-10. Not that big of a gap. There was a point when Serena lead Davenport 10-2. I'd hardly call that a rivalry, regardless of how close several of those matches were. My main point then is that I don't think it was that great of a 4 way rivalry. I saw it as more of a 3 way rivarly between Hingis/Davenport/Williams. But then again, as I typed the last line, I think I just understood what you actually originally meant. You meant to say Davenport + Hingis versus Serena + Venus was the best rivalry. In that regards, yes I agree, it was a good rivalry. Lol.

hunger, desire, fire..........
stength, power, precision.........
talent, court sense, smartness........
no i am not talking about a racket or a squirrel, i am talking about the former and future number 1..............
martina hingis!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good Luck Justine Henin Hardenne, Venus Williams, Maria Sharapova, Mary Pierce, and any of my other favorites that I might have forgotten about at this moment.
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post #7 of 50 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 2005, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTL
That's not very interesting, really. I mean, Hingis still beat Serena in the USA.

I think it was Venus vs. Martina who never beat each other in their home places - Martina always beat Venus in the USA, until 2000. Venus always beat Martina outside of the USA, until 2001. I think that's how it worked.
Yes, in 98. The first two times they played Martina won in the U.S But after that, Hingis was 4-0 versus Serena outside the U.S. Serena was 7-0 against Hingis inside the U.S. I think that's pretty interesting, but I guess we shall have to disagree once again.

hunger, desire, fire..........
stength, power, precision.........
talent, court sense, smartness........
no i am not talking about a racket or a squirrel, i am talking about the former and future number 1..............
martina hingis!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good Luck Justine Henin Hardenne, Venus Williams, Maria Sharapova, Mary Pierce, and any of my other favorites that I might have forgotten about at this moment.
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post #8 of 50 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 2005, 08:24 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franny
Lindsay didn't always beat Martina. Though she lead their head to head, there was never a point where their head to head was highly in favor of one player. In the end, it was 14-10. Not that big of a gap. There was a point when Serena lead Davenport 10-2. I'd hardly call that a rivalry, regardless of how close several of those matches were. My main point then is that I don't think it was that great of a 4 way rivalry. I saw it as more of a 3 way rivarly between Hingis/Davenport/Williams. But then again, as I typed the last line, I think I just understood what you actually originally meant. You meant to say Davenport + Hingis versus Serena + Venus was the best rivalry. In that regards, yes I agree, it was a good rivalry. Lol.
It is true that Davenport and Hingis were never dominating their rivalry in overall terms, but at one points, Davenport had won 7/8 and 8/10 matches from 1998 to 2000. In five matches during this time, Martina won only one set against Lindsay.

Let them eat cake.
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post #9 of 50 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 2005, 08:27 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franny
Yes, in 98. The first two times they played Martina won in the U.S But after that, Hingis was 4-0 versus Serena outside the U.S. Serena was 7-0 against Hingis inside the U.S. I think that's pretty interesting, but I guess we shall have to disagree once again.
Oh OK, now I see what you mean. Yes, that is pretty interesting.

In their H2H, what is also interesting is that in their last nine matches, one player won three matches each. It went:

Serena
Serena
Serena
Martina
Martina
Martina
Serena
Serena
Serena

Let them eat cake.
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post #10 of 50 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 2005, 08:28 AM Thread Starter
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Another funny thing is that Serena never played Martina when she was seeded higher than her. The closest they ever got in the seedings was in Scottsdale of '02, when Serena was 3rd and Hingis was 2nd.

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post #11 of 50 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 2005, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTL
Lindsay always beat Martina - she led their H2H. Even though Lindsay wasn't really able to beat Serena, consistently, they still played incredible matches that made an amazing rivalry.

'98 Sydney - Serena def. Lindsay 16 75 75
'99 New York - Serena def. Lindsay 64 16 64
'00 LA - Serena def. Lindsay 46 64 76
'01 New York - Serena def. Lindsay 63 67 75

I mean, Lindsay had amazing chances in all of these matches. I think she was up 61 52 (and matchpoints) in that first match in Sydney. I believe she had matchpoints in LA and the New York match was arguably the Best Power Match of All-Time.
You left out Lindsay's 6-4, 6-2 win over Serena at the 2000 US Open, after which Richard grumbled,"She played with no common sense." and Venus shot Davenport a dirty look when Lindsay hugged her coach after the win. This was during the tag-team drama that was going on. Those were the good ole days.

FUCK YOU, SEWTA.
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post #12 of 50 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 2005, 10:04 AM
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Hingis scored a number of lopsided wins over Venus (not just in '97 but in '99 and '01 as well) while most of Venus' wins were by competitive scorelines. The easiest ones she got were 6-3, 6-4 in Zurich '99, 6-3, 7-6 in '01 Miami and 7-5, 6-3 in Hamburg '02.

Also, Hingis almost always had a difficult match when she played Serena. It was never easy, except for the Italian Open in 1999, when she beat Rena 6-2, 6-2. Serena had some tough wins but some easy wins over Martina as well (6-3, 6-2 at the '01 US Open, 6-4, 6-0 in '02 Miami)

FUCK YOU, SEWTA.
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post #13 of 50 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 2005, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTL
These four greats have shown us something special ever since 1997. Look at their records through the years, going from 1997 to 2002, until Hingis' retirement:

1997
Davenport/Hingis vs. V.Williams/S.Williams - 6/0


1998
Davenport/Hingis vs. V.Williams/S.Williams - 9/4

1999
Davenport/Hingis vs. V.Williams/S.Williams - 7/11

2000
Davenport/Hingis vs. V.Williams/S.Williams - 3/7

2001
Davenport/Hingis vs. V.Williams/S.Williams - 3/7

2002
Davenport/Hingis vs. V.Williams/S.Williams - 0/6


The years coloured in red are the years they played, but there was not much of a rivalry going on. I counted their four "prime years" from 1998 to 2001. During this time, Venus and Serena led their rivalry 29/24.

What made their rivalry so special and competitive?

To make it more of a contest, let's count their four "prime years".
That's a bit misleading when you consider, Hingis was the one scoring the wins, while Lindsay would more often than not lose to the sisters. It got to a point where at the 2000 US Open, Hingis went up to Davenport and told her that she always lost to the Williamses and to finally beat one of them already instead of always leaving them to Martina. Lindsay responded that she expected Martina to take out Venus in return. This "pact" was blown out of proportion in the media. Lindsay and Martina were just joking around, but Oracene wasn't amused. Venus was seething but was asked to take the high road by the WTA. Serena, though, was pissed and made a reference to it in her post-match press conference after losing to Lindsay. Man, I'm really longing for these days again.

FUCK YOU, SEWTA.
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post #14 of 50 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 2005, 11:31 AM Thread Starter
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You can say that again. Now, we're forced to stay with Pierce, Mauresmo, and Clijsters at the top. Everybody is just TOO nice these days.

Let them eat cake.
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post #15 of 50 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 2005, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
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Q. Lindsay said on TV that she and Martina had a little discussion that they didn't want to see that all-Williams final that everybody was expecting. Did you find that surprising they would do that?

SERENA WILLIAMS: Not at all. That's the way a lot of people would want it. I'm sure a lot of people never want to see an all-Williams final. It's going to happen in the future inevitably. Nobody's going to be able to stop it. Unfortunately, I didn't pull my end up this year. I'm sure in the next Grand Slam, the Australian Open, Wimbledon or the French, the US Open, I'm going to do my utmost to make sure it happens, make sure it happens because that's just what I would like. Obviously, no one would want to see an all-Williams final because everyone doesn't really like us. That's just the way it is.


Man, was Serena right - or was she right? The next time she would play Lindsay, it would be a 61 62 romping. Lindsay and Martina were the players Serena beat to make the first Williams Sister Final come true.

Karma is a bitch.

Let them eat cake.
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