To Seles fans, a Graf fan asks.... - TennisForum.com

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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 2005, 03:05 PM Thread Starter
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To Seles fans, a Graf fan asks....

Ok, I know this is a discussion forum and I really enjoy reading all the different opinions and bitching ( yes I know I do more than my fair share) and really it's all fun and games. However to get to my point I think that the debate over Graf's career and it's merits when the Seles stabbing is considered has got to a ridiculous point. It seems many posters are angry with Graf for her achievements and the circumstances which surround them.
So as I serious Graf fan ( I love that woman!) I ask Seles fans, ( and I expect no responses!)

Yes the stabbing helped Graf by taking out the woman who was dominating the tour. If Seles hadn't been stabbed, it's unlikely Graf would have got 22 slams. Nevertheless Graf won those slams. She would never have wanted to win them in those circumstances but she could hardly quit playing. Whether or not the absence of Seles diminishes Graf's achievements in your eyes, can you at least admit that Graf did well to win those slams and is a great champion?
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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 2005, 03:09 PM
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I love both players im fan of both...
But its like a yeah Graf did well to win those slams and was a great champion... BUT...

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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 2005, 03:20 PM
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Nobody is saying that Graf didn't win those Slams. Everybody knows that she is probably the Greatest Women's Singles Tennis Player of All-Time. The fact that people like Calimero say that Graf's 22 Slams would have still happened, is bogus. Seles was the best player on Tour and she got stabbed. Thus, is produces an easy road for Graf's major titles from 1993 to 1996. When Seles returned, she wasn't the same player because she was emotionally drained.

Let them eat cake.
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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 2005, 03:23 PM
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Of course Steffi was a great champion. Who could deny that? She had won the Grand Slam before Monica even came along! She overcame injuries and distractions and was a supremely tough competitor and a great athlete.

Steffi's greatness is what made Monica taking over the top for 2 years (until she was stabbed) even more impressive!
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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 2005, 03:30 PM
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I grew up being a Seles fan, and I really respect and admire both of them,
still remember some amazing matches...

In my opinion, the absence of Monika does not diminish Steffi's achievements - what happened to Monika was
a terrible, terrible tragedy , but it was not Steffi's fault, and things like that (well, not really that extreme but...) do happen -
Martina Hingis had to quit playing at 23 , and that certainly made things a lot easier for other players...
Just recently Anna Lena had to retire when she was SO close
to beating Maria, so close to the best result of her career...

There are a lot of similar examples - big tragedies,
some unfortunate developments, unlucky situations... - it's tennis, it's sport, it's life...

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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 2005, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Moonshine
... I ask Seles fans, ( and I expect no responses!)
Really? You expect no responses? LOL

Quote:
Yes the stabbing helped Graf by taking out the woman who was dominating the tour. If Seles hadn't been stabbed, it's unlikely Graf would have got 22 slams.
Once you've conceded that part of the equation, I seriously doubt that any Seles fan would fail to agree that Graf is, indeed, a great champion. Ok, perhaps I shouldn't speak for them all, but most I know would agree with me. Heh.

She (Graf) just would not have dominated the tour if tennis had not been robbed of this great rivalry by that sick s.o.b. Perhaps it's the hardcore Graf fans that you need to address your questions to. The ones that refuse to concede the point that you did in posing your question.

Is that all you were hoping to hear in this thread?
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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 2005, 04:12 PM
 
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Hello earthcrystal .
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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 2005, 04:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Moonshine

Yes the stabbing helped Graf by taking out the woman who was dominating the tour. If Seles hadn't been stabbed, it's unlikely Graf would have got 22 slams. Nevertheless Graf won those slams. She would never have wanted to win them in those circumstances but she could hardly quit playing. Whether or not the absence of Seles diminishes Graf's achievements in your eyes, can you at least admit that Graf did well to win those slams and is a great champion?
Easily.

However, the preambling paragraph of generalisations about Seles fans you wrote before the one I've quoted makes me not want to.
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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 2005, 04:19 PM
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No one knows what would have happend. Maybe Monica would have donminated Stef for a very long time or maybe Steffi would have changed somethings in her game to adapt.Theirs no point in aruging about somthing that never happend and when theirs 2 senierios like those 2.
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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 2005, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kart

However, the preambling paragraph of generalisations about Seles fans you wrote before the one I've quoted makes me not want to.
Yeah, I have to agree. Rhetoric and innuendo are not a good way to engage dialogue. Lucky for you that we Seles fans are as nice as our fave.

Hi backatcha Kart.
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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 2005, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Moonshine
Ok, I know this is a discussion forum and I really enjoy reading all the different opinions and bitching ( yes I know I do more than my fair share) and really it's all fun and games. However to get to my point I think that the debate over Graf's career and it's merits when the Seles stabbing is considered has got to a ridiculous point. It seems many posters are angry with Graf for her achievements and the circumstances which surround them.
So as I serious Graf fan ( I love that woman!) I ask Seles fans, ( and I expect no responses!)

Yes the stabbing helped Graf by taking out the woman who was dominating the tour. If Seles hadn't been stabbed, it's unlikely Graf would have got 22 slams. Nevertheless Graf won those slams. She would never have wanted to win them in those circumstances but she could hardly quit playing. Whether or not the absence of Seles diminishes Graf's achievements in your eyes, can you at least admit that Graf did well to win those slams and is a great champion?

Well it's really hard to know...but I really think that Monica would have won around 5 or 6 other GS titles (and of course most of them against Steffi who dominated the tennis in 93, 94, 95 for sure without her tragedy... so that means that they could have been really closed in term of GS Titles...
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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 2005, 04:32 PM
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What happened to Monica was very unfair at the very least, and criminal in its raw form; however, what happened was not Steffi's fault. I've never faulted Steffi for what happened. I do fault the WTA tour player's board at that time for not allowing Monica's ranking to be frozen (Sabatini is the only who voted to freeze it. ). I am 99% sure Monica would have come back sooner had her ranking been frozen, eventhough she was given the co-#1 ranking with Steffi upon her return.

Monica and Steffi were not the only players on the tour at that time. Yes, they were dominant (like Chrissie and Martina) but Steffi still had to play 7 matches in each of those Majors. No doubt Monica would have won more and Steffi would have won less Majors, but the sad truth is that Gunther Parche DID get what he wanted and Steffi ended up being the best player of her generation...and arguably one of the best ever.

I still don't think Monica gets enough credit for returning to the tour and WINNING the Canadian Open and making it to the US Open Final in 1995.

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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 2005, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Moonshine
Ok, I know this is a discussion forum and I really enjoy reading all the different opinions and bitching ( yes I know I do more than my fair share) and really it's all fun and games. However to get to my point I think that the debate over Graf's career and it's merits when the Seles stabbing is considered has got to a ridiculous point. It seems many posters are angry with Graf for her achievements and the circumstances which surround them.
So as I serious Graf fan ( I love that woman!) I ask Seles fans, ( and I expect no responses!)

Yes the stabbing helped Graf by taking out the woman who was dominating the tour. If Seles hadn't been stabbed, it's unlikely Graf would have got 22 slams. Nevertheless Graf won those slams. She would never have wanted to win them in those circumstances but she could hardly quit playing. Whether or not the absence of Seles diminishes Graf's achievements in your eyes, can you at least admit that Graf did well to win those slams and is a great champion?
Actually Graf would have won even ONE MORE slam without The Stabbing most probably. With Seles in the draw Steffi most certainly would not have had to play Lori McNeil at Wimbledon 94 in the 1st round.
And it is debatable whether the fact that Seles was AWOL in 93/95 contributed to Steffi's lack of motivation in 1994 which made her lose to Pierce at FO and to ASV at USO that year.

So let's say one or two more slams for Steffi without The Stabbing.
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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 2005, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SelesFan70
What happened to Monica was very unfair at the very least, and criminal in its raw form; however, what happened was not Steffi's fault. I've never faulted Steffi for what happened. I do fault the WTA tour player's board at that time for not allowing Monica's ranking to be frozen (Sabatini is the only who voted to freeze it. ). I am 99% sure Monica would have come back sooner had her ranking been frozen, eventhough she was given the co-#1 ranking with Steffi upon her return.

Monica and Steffi were not the only players on the tour at that time. Yes, they were dominant (like Chrissie and Martina) but Steffi still had to play 7 matches in each of those Majors. No doubt Monica would have won more and Steffi would have won less Majors, but the sad truth is that Gunther Parche DID get what he wanted and Steffi ended up being the best player of her generation...and arguably one of the best ever.

I still don't think Monica gets enough credit for returning to the tour and WINNING the Canadian Open and making it to the US Open Final in 1995.
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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old Oct 29th, 2005, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anniflava
Nobody is saying that Graf didn't win those Slams. Everybody knows that she is probably the Greatest Women's Singles Tennis Player of All-Time. The fact that people like Calimero say that Graf's 22 Slams would have still happened, is bogus. Seles was the best player on Tour and she got stabbed. Thus, is produces an easy road for Graf's major titles from 1993 to 1996. When Seles returned, she wasn't the same player because she was emotionally drained.

Well, she was not emotionally drained in summer 95 and winter 96 (made USO finals, won AO - although with Graf out due to injury).

No, Seles had gained weight (the genes ... ). That was not causing by The Stabbing.
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