Is a win a win? - TennisForum.com

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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2004, 12:24 AM Thread Starter
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Is a win a win?

It's the off season and we are already into the usual who did the best, what was the biggest upset etc.

As I am reading posts about matches, I notice people use matches in which a player lost when she was either injured or ill.

I don't know about many of you, but I am just not one that will include those matches when talking about major upsets or bad losses and etc.

I'm just never sure a win is a win, even when on paper it is. One big example is Alina Jidkova's upset of Serena Williams two months ago in Europe.

Mind you it was probably dumb of Serena to go out and attempt to compete in match when sick, (many players do this and it drives me insane) I still have to think twice about it being such a major upset considering Alina did not beat Serena at her best.

But in 30 years, Alina will be able to tell her grandkids she once beat one of the best players in the game. You can't take that away from her.

We have had many debates about these types of matches in the past, so I am wondering again one some of you feel about it.

Is a win a win? Perhaps. But I think when a player loses a match, and she is injured or rather ill, we need to think twice about making such a hoopla out of the player who happened to beat that player on that particular bad day.

Any thoughts?
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2004, 12:26 AM
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In a few years no one remebers why someone won/lost ... only result is left!

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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2004, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrm
In a few years no one remebers why someone won/lost ... only result is left!
This is not necessarily true. The Graf fans on this board remember when she was injured and lost matches because of it. I'll probably remember most of the time where injury caused the Williams sisters to lose in a few years, especially a loss to someone like Jidkova
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2004, 12:29 AM
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Example: when ASV won French Open in 1989 beating Steffi in the final ... later Steffi said she had diarrhea.

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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2004, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knizzle
This is not necessarily true. The Graf fans on this board remember when she was injured and lost matches because of it. I'll probably remember most of the time where injury caused the Williams sisters to lose in a few years, especially a loss to someone like Jidkova
How about matches 15,20 years ago most of us haven't seen?

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Val d’Isère 2009 SC GOLD and Super-G BRONZE
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2004, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrm
Example: when ASV won French Open in 1989 beating Steffi in the final ... later Steffi said she had diarrhea.
Well yeah if you claim it later after showing no ill effects on the court no one will remember really, but in the case of say Serena at the YEC final this year against Sharapova, you don't think we'll remember Serena was injured in that match??
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2004, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrm
How about matches 15,20 years ago most of us haven't seen?
Well yeah, if we didn't see it we can't remember it.

But those who did see them usually pass on the info. Just like those Graf fans who still remember when she was injured or hampered.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2004, 12:35 AM
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Ask Calimero - Any win a player had over Graf never counted because theres always an excuse..

Of even more significance, there's this little gap in Graf's resume the size of the hole in the ozone layer: It's called Monica Seles. Was Graf the best female player of all time? She wasn't even the best in the heart of her career.
- Frank Deford, Sports Illustrated 27/8/01
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2004, 12:35 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrm
How about matches 15,20 years ago most of us haven't seen?
Well in 1983 I actually saw Kathy Jordon upset a very obviously ill Chris Evert in the third round.

Now Kathy actually had legitimate wins over a healthy Chris Evert, but Evert was virtually powerless to overcome Jordon's relentless serve and volley game that day. I mean Chris put up a fight but she had absolutely nothing to counter attack that day.

People made such a big deal out of that match back then, because Chris Evert before that NEVER lost before the quarterfinals in Grand Slams.

It was a great match for Kathy who eventually got to the quarters, but she definitely beat a very sick player that day regardless of how huge that match was.
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2004, 12:38 AM
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Like i said: record books only give results

P.S. - i don't see any of those 'lucky' winner saying: oh. my opponent was injured/sick maybe i should gave her the check cause she would have won without those troubles!

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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2004, 12:39 AM
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To answer Jakeev's original question, even though it goes down in the book as a win, the level of respect of achievement or accomplishment is diminished when there are uncontrollable circumstances like an injury. Like Wimbledon 2003 for Serena, her semifinal against Justine seems like more of an accomplishment than beating an injured Venus in the final.
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2004, 12:41 AM
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Actually the only matches that usually go down in history are the grandslam matches. Nobody cares or even remembers about anything else.

A win is a win, but a slam champion will be remembered forever.

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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2004, 12:45 AM
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Jakeev, I agree with your post 150%. At the YEC one could clearly see that Serena was injured so how could that win by maria be fair especially when Serena was up 4-0 and started to serve so poorly a person like Serena who has the best serve on the WTA. That's what I call real luck on Maria's part.

To me you post is right on target. However, a player could go out on the court and starts to play and suddenly get ill which probably does not happen ofter but it's a possibility.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2004, 12:51 AM
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A win is a win.....but not every win is one you should brag about. Jidkova def. Serena or Maria def Serena at YEC.

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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2004, 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icequeen
Jakeev, I agree with your post 150%. At the YEC one could clearly see that Serena was injured so how could that win by maria be fair especially when Serena was up 4-0 and started to serve so poorly a person like Serena who has the best serve on the WTA. That's what I call real luck on Maria's part.
Please we have gone through this many times, Serena was serving as poorly in the 2nd game of the 3rd set as she was in the 10th..
The difference after 4-0 was that Serena didnt make as many winners and Maria stopped making the silly errors that cost her points in the first 4 games.
Though the win was a partly hollow one, the match was level at the beginning of the 3rd set and Maria had to find a way from 0-4.
Serena wasnt hitting or moving like an injured player and thats a credit to her.
In the end a win is a win..
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