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post #1246 of 1591 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2012, 03:27 PM
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Re: My take on the Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour

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That's an excuse, not a defense
you have no valid explanation why
1) Azarenka is already ahead of Kuznetsova
2) Schiavone and Stosur with their almost 0 titles except Slam are ahead of Kvitova with Slam and YEC

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post #1247 of 1591 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2012, 03:46 PM
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Re: The 20 Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour

Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova.
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post #1248 of 1591 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2012, 04:08 PM
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Re: The 20 Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour

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Originally Posted by Tennis Fool View Post
Sorry, fixed.

Number of Slams first.*
Number of Slam finals next.
Ranking is third.
Non-slam career titles fourth.
Doubles titles serve as a tiebreak, when all else is even.


* In the case Player A holds one Slam less than Player B, but Player A has been ranked #1, Player A will be given the edge. This is the only time a ranking trumps a Slam.
Losing 5 Slam finals is worth less than winning three Indian Wells tournaments for instance hence the losing slam quota should be placed lower IMO

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post #1249 of 1591 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2012, 04:24 PM
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Re: The 20 Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour

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Losing 5 Slam finals is worth less than winning three Indian Wells tournaments for instance hence the losing slam quota should be placed lower IMO
it's a tradition that all achievements' rankings are heavily based on Slam results(Title,RU, SF) + Additional: YEC/Olympics + WTA Ranking + W/L stat + Number of WTA titles .....

So Miami's and other Fifth Slams are not that much significant in reality....

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post #1250 of 1591 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2012, 05:50 PM
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Re: The 20 Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour

I have no problem with ranking Azarenka over Kuznetsova. Azarenka despite being way younger, and Kuznetsova`s career basically being over, has more WTA singles titles than her. Kuznetsova`s only real edge is one more slam. However Azarenka has the year end #1 ranking, and a legit one that while most dont regard her best player, most regard her as deserving the #1 rank for the year, unlike say Wozniackis. It also really stands out since it is something Kuznetsova could never come anywhere close to. Yes she was year end #2 in 2007, but she was thousands of points behind the year end #1 who was lights year above all others that year, and nowhere close to ever getting it. Azarenka has numerous Miami titles, Kuznetsova has one, that being one of the biggest non slam events.

Kuznetsova won both her slams over a mug finals opponent who never would win a slam. The two times she made a slam final and faced a real opponent we saw what happened, she got spanked off the court. Contrast that to Azarenka who crushed a multi slam champion to win her only slam thus far, then took the great Serena deep into a 3rd set and served for the title in the other. Sometimes one has to read between the lines a bit.
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post #1251 of 1591 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2012, 06:10 PM
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Re: The 20 Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour

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I have no problem with ranking Azarenka over Kuznetsova. Azarenka despite being way younger, and Kuznetsova`s career basically being over, has more WTA singles titles than her. Kuznetsova`s only real edge is one more slam. However Azarenka has the year end #1 ranking, and a legit one that while most dont regard her best player, most regard her as deserving the #1 rank for the year, unlike say Wozniackis. It also really stands out since it is something Kuznetsova could never come anywhere close to. Yes she was year end #2 in 2007, but she was thousands of points behind the year end #1 who was lights year above all others that year, and nowhere close to ever getting it. Azarenka has numerous Miami titles, Kuznetsova has one, that being one of the biggest non slam events.

Kuznetsova won both her slams over a mug finals opponent who never would win a slam. The two times she made a slam final and faced a real opponent we saw what happened, she got spanked off the court. Contrast that to Azarenka who crushed a multi slam champion to win her only slam thus far, then took the great Serena deep into a 3rd set and served for the title in the other. Sometimes one has to read between the lines a bit.
multislam champion was returning back in tour after ankle injury to be fair, she wasn't even in top 5 favourites at this AO

What is more hardcourt players have more advantages for being /reaching #1 , as more tournaments are held on this surface , thus Azarenkas or Wozniackis will always have advantage over the likes of Venus or ASV in "WTA ranking #1 weeks count"

just change % advantage of HC tournaments to clay in 2009 and Kuznesova would have been #1

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post #1252 of 1591 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2012, 08:10 PM
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Wink Re: The 20 Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour

Code:
		         GS	YEC    T1/PM/5  OG     No.1     Top3    Top5    Top10	W/L   vs.Top10  Total
													
1. Williams, S.		36960	5900	15600	750    12300	5640	5050	4760	8369	6738   102067
2. Williams, V.		26000	2700	11000	750	1100   12120	6400	4260	7995	5930	78255
3. Sharapova, M.	17360	4300	15400	450	2100	8400	5650	1140	8041	5929	68770
4. Kuznetsova, S.	 7120	 400	 6200	  0	   0	3360	6000	2160	6859	3519	35618
5. Azarenka, V.		 4640	1600	 6800	340	4500	1320	1700	1580	7176	5057	34713
6. Jankovic, J.		 4800	 800	 9000	  0	1800	4260	2150	1880	6528	3458	34676
7. Wozniacki, C.	 3360	1400	 6200	  0	6700	1080	2150	1100	7303	4308	33601
8. Zvonareva, V.	 3840	1800	 4600	340	   0	2940	 700	2400	6795	2870	26285
9. Ivanovic, A.		 5120	 400	 4200	  0	1200	1140	2250	 540	6955	4198	26003
10. Kvitova, P.		 4160	1500	 2000	  0        0	1680	1100	 780	6513	5313	23046
11. Radwanska, A.	 1200	1000	 4200	  0	   0	1140	1050	2180	6972	3797	21539
12. Stosur, S.		 4640	 800	 1800	  0	   0	   0	2000	2060	5956	3108	20364
13. Li, N.		 3920	 400	 2200	  0	   0	   0	1000	1760	6606    4198    20084
14. Petrova, N.		 1440	 400	 4200	  0	   0	 240	 900	2680	6468	2613	18941
15. Date-Krumm, K.	 2160	 500	 1600	  0	   0	   0	   ?	2980	6584	3333	17157
16. Schiavone, F.	 3200	 200	  600	  0	   0	   0	 900	1040	5900	2636	14476
17. Dokic, J.		  720	 200	 3200	  0	   0	   0	 500	1440	6116	2154	14330
18. Hantuchova, D.	  720	 200	 2600	  0	   0	   0	 360	1700	6053	2650	14283
19. Bartoli, M.		 1920	 400	  600	  0	   0	   0	   0	2060	6215	3077	14272
20. Chakvetadze, A.	  720	 400	 1000	  0	   0	   0	 150	1360	6352	3182	13164


Retired
Henin, J.		23600	3300	12400	750    11700	3540	3100	2120	8199	6056    74765
Clijsters, K.		18560	5200	 8800	  0	2000	9900	5300	1100	8046	5714	64620
Dementieva, E.		 7440	1300	 7200  1200	   0	 300	5300	4620	6784    3826	37970 :O
Code:
	W	F	SF/3rd						
GS	2000	1200	720						

YEC    *1500								

T1/PM/5	1000	600	 -						

OG	750	450	340
	
No.1 - Weeks at no.1 x 100

Top 3 - Weeks at no.2,3 x 60

Top 5 - Weeks at no.4,5 x 50

Top 10 - Weeks at no 6,7,8,9,10 x 20

W/L - Career win-loss % x 100

vs.Top10 - Career win-loss % vs top 10 x 100					
									
* 1500 for undefeated Champion (200 for each round robin match win, plus 400 for a semi-final win, 
plus 500 for the final win), [100 for 1st rd win before 2003/RR format].


I used ATP's point system as it is easier to follow and a bit more accurate than WTA's. At first, I had counted Tier II/Premier and MM wins too but that bumped Wozniacki a bit too high so I removed them But seriously any decent player can win them, not a very good sign of greatness.

No problem at the top but gets a bit questionable towards the bottom so am open to suggestions about everything. There's also the Grand Slam Cup that both Williams won once and lasted only two years so I didn't include that one. They don't need the points anyway. Lastly, Date-Krumm had 149 weeks in the top 10 but I don't know how many in the top 5. Her total will increase but don't think it'll be enough to pass Petrova.

Last edited by Lucemferre; Nov 8th, 2012 at 10:13 PM.
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post #1253 of 1591 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2012, 09:06 PM
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Re: The 20 Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour

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Originally Posted by Lucemferre View Post

I used ATP's point system as it is easier to follow and a bit more accurate than WTA's. At first, I had counted Tier II/Premier and MM wins too but that bumped Wozniacki a bit too high so I removed them But seriously any decent player can win them, not a very good sign of greatness.

No problem at the top but gets a bit questionable towards the bottom so am open to suggestions about everything. There's also the Grand Slam Cup that both Williams won once and lasted only two years so I didn't include that one. They don't need the points anyway. Lastly, Date-Krumm had 149 weeks in the top 10 but I don't know how many in the top 5. Her total will increase but don't think it'll be enough to pass Petrova.
Wow, I really like the result with your system

Personally I would rank Wozniacki higher than Jankovic. Adding the number of titles would do it I guess. IMO, Zvonareva and Radwanska should be below the one slam winners. Though, Schiavone, Li and Stosur have hardly done anything outside their Slam.

I like the huge gap between the Sisters/Sharapova and the other players. It's accurate. Note how Wozniacki, Azarenka, Jankovic and Kuznetsova are almost tied. They're all among the best achievers among their respective generations. Dementieva would be among them. Then you have a small gap followed by the players inside the 20 thousand something.

You take into account most of the data I would include myself: Premier5/Mandatory/Tiers1, W/L %, not only Slams.

Great job

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucemferre View Post
I had counted Tier II/Premier and MM wins too but that bumped Wozniacki a bit too high so I removed them
At least you're honest about it

Seriously, it would be nice if you could post another spreadsheet taking into account the number of titles won as a whole. The player who manages to win dozens of Premier 700 and MM titles is certainly greater than someone who has won only 2 or 3 Tiers 1, for example.
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post #1254 of 1591 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2012, 09:30 PM
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Re: The 20 Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour

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Originally Posted by Achernar View Post
Wow, I really like the result with your system

Personally I would rank Wozniacki higher than Jankovic. Adding the number of titles would do it I guess. IMO, Zvonareva and Radwanska should be below the one slam winners. Though, Schiavone, Li and Stosur have hardly done anything outside their Slam.

I like the huge gap between the Sisters/Sharapova and the other players. It's accurate. Note how Wozniacki, Azarenka, Jankovic and Kuznetsova are almost tied. They're all among the best achievers among their respective generations. Dementieva would be among them. Then you have a small gap followed by the players inside the 20 thousand something.

You take into account most of the data I would include myself: Premier5/Mandatory/Tiers1, W/L %, not only Slams.

Great job


At least you're honest about it

Seriously, it would be nice if you could post another spreadsheet taking into account the number of titles won as a whole. The player who manages to win dozens of Premier 700 and MM titles is certainly greater than someone who has won only 2 or 3 Tiers 1, for example.
Yes but that would upset a lot of slamless pusher haters Tier II/Premier and MM titles give Wozniacki a big boost and I don't mind either way but how much do they matter when discussing greatness?

Btw look at Olympic GOAT Dementieva
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post #1255 of 1591 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2012, 09:46 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The 20 Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour

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Originally Posted by Lucemferre View Post
[code] At first, I had counted Tier II/Premier and MM wins too but that bumped Wozniacki a bit too high so I removed them
Interesting list, but also must say that objectivity is not possible with these points systems, as has been shown.

Wonder if you would have the same problems as I have of late, if Azarenka edged Kuzzie on your list!

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post #1256 of 1591 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2012, 09:58 PM
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Re: The 20 Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour

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Originally Posted by Tennis Fool View Post
Interesting list, but also must say that objectivity is not possible with these points systems, as has been shown.

Wonder if you would have the same problems as I have of late, if Azarenka edged Kuzzie on your list!
She will definitely do it next year and at the end of the year nobody will complain because she will have surpassed her with probably another slam and some other big titles.

As for objectivity, I like Caro. It wasn't because I'm biased against her but because they inflate rankings. Caro will for sure pass Jankovic and Kuznetsova next year with or without Premiers or Internationals.
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post #1257 of 1591 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2012, 10:00 PM
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Re: The 20 Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour

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Yes but that would upset a lot of slamless pusher haters Tier II/Premier and MM titles give Wozniacki a big boost and I don't mind either way but how much do they matter when discussing greatness?

Btw look at Olympic GOAT Dementieva
the main problem of your system is that it copies ATP system , but 2 Tier 1 (Master 1000) will never be close to winning a Slam (Murray will confirm , as well as Wozniacki (but she only to her father)

ATP/WTA ranking are constructed so that they are not evaluating season's achievements of players, but they are encouraging the players to take part and be motivated on insignificant for their careers tournaments (Like Beijing or Doha etc) Otherwise all players will be playing like Serena taking all other tournaments as match practice before big tournament with huge points (Slam)

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post #1258 of 1591 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2012, 10:06 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The 20 Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour

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She will definitely do it next year and at the end of the year nobody will complain because she will have surpassed her with probably another slam and some other big titles.
You've been on TF long enough to know better than that!

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post #1259 of 1591 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2012, 10:08 PM
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Re: The 20 Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour

Kuznetsova should definitely be above Victoria. That number one ranking is NOT greater than a slam win.

And why is Stosur above Li? Li has more titles. Don't tell me Stosur is ahead because of her doubles success? For fucks sake, this is about SINGLES achievements. Why do people insist on adding in players' doubles success. Its stupid, don't chastise others who don't want to play doubles.
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post #1260 of 1591 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2012, 10:11 PM
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Re: The 20 Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour

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Originally Posted by Tennis Fool View Post
You've been on TF long enough to know better than that!
Now i see the reason of this biased ranking....

TennisFool is giving ranking in advance.....

Quote:
And why is Stosur above Li? Li has more titles. Don't tell me Stosur is ahead because of her doubles success? For fucks sake, this is about SINGLES achievements. Why do people insist on adding in players' doubles success. Its stupid, don't chastise others who don't want to play doubles.
why Stosur is ahead of Kvitova ))))) this list is just B.S, almost everything except top 3 is a joke

I just don't get it why this list is considered by mods official?

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