Sexism and the 'nice' female tennis player! - TennisForum.com

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post #1 of 47 (permalink) Old May 28th, 2004, 07:04 AM Thread Starter
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Sexism and the 'nice' female tennis player!

Quote:
Originally Posted by justine&coria
I'm gonna say once again what I said in post #100 and # 104.

Main reason for some stupid people in the crowd for booing Serena = Serena's arrogant attitude last year : remember the horrible face she had against Mauresmo when she beat her last year !

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by visions23
Booing has nothing to do with the fact Serena is a threat. Serena was booed because she is arrogant, and not nice. Mary PIERCE was booed too, at the beginning of his carreer, even if she is french.

Of course, maybe some people boo her because she is too strong, but MOST OF the booing is because of her attitude.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Please justine&coria and visions23, this is not a criticism of your post but if you guys are right, then WE SHOULD ALL BE WORRIED BECAUSE THAT'S SEXIST.I mean this is a friggin' sport and athletes are there to compete but people don't like 'arrongant' or 'horrible' face on a female tennis player because this violates the rules of good manners?? This is one of the most offensive things I have heard!!

As fans of women's tennis we should all be worried by the implication that female tennis players should be 'nice' and not make 'arrongant' and 'horrible' faces during competition when your heart-beat is running at a thousand miles an hours, your adreneline is way up, when passion, a fighting spirit, pure guts and determination determine the outcome of the match as much as skill and talent!! You might as well tell women to only use 50% of their capacity because the other 50% is exactly that: aggression, passion, determination, fight and, yes, for MANY athletes this manifests itself physically in fists being pumped, veins bulging, screams of ALLEZ, C'MON, VAMOS, KOMM JETZT etc and, yes, a 'horrible' and 'arrongant' face while this all happens.

Is this not why we all watch sports and tennis in particular??? Is this not why people were posting pics in that thread 'a pic of your favourite player being aggressive'??

C'mon people, if what justine&coria says is true, this issue is bigger than Serena and goes to the heart of what we all expect of female athletes in general and what we seem to expect right now is not an athlete who competes with passion and determination but an athelete who is 'nice'. And I am not even talking about 'nice' in a way that relates to good sportsmanship and following the rules of the game but apparently 'nice' in a way that means no offending your opponent by having an impolite expression on your face! Do people even realise how offensive this is to Amelie Mauresmo?? I mean the implication was that she was intimidated by Serena and lost the match because Serena wasn't 'nice' enough to her!! Yes, next time play nicely with each other girls, ok?? What the hell is a tennis court, a friggin' play ground???

Am I alone in believing this??? I am really really angry right now but I truly believe that there is something to be angry about!! I hope my post makes sense.

DelMonte

Last edited by DelMonte; May 28th, 2004 at 07:23 AM.
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post #2 of 47 (permalink) Old May 28th, 2004, 07:09 AM
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Well I find Lleyton Hewitt annoying for the same reasons.

Actually I like Serena and Venus even more. But it's annoying how their fans (on this board particularly) takes every little thing so seriously.




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post #3 of 47 (permalink) Old May 28th, 2004, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam L
But it's annoying how their fans (on this board particularly) takes every little thing so seriously.
agreed.
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post #4 of 47 (permalink) Old May 28th, 2004, 07:17 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam L
Well I find Lleyton Hewitt annoying for the same reasons.

Actually I like Serena and Venus even more. But it's annoying how their fans (on this board particularly) takes every little thing so seriously.
Is this a general statement/criticism or one that specifically relates to my post? I do think that sexism is a serious issue in sports (I find it frustrating when male and female athletes are held to different standards) and I find it worrying that some people on this board are buying into the idea that female tennis players have to be 'nice' and if they are not, they are likely to offend their opponent, crowds etc.

I happen to think this is an important issue to debate.
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post #5 of 47 (permalink) Old May 28th, 2004, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelMonte
C'mon people, if what justine&coria says is true, this issue is bigger than Serena and goes to the heart of what we all expect of female athletes in general and what we seem to expect right now is not an athlete who competes with passion and determination but an athelete who is 'nice'. And I am not even talking about 'nice' in a way that relates to good sportsmanship and following the rules of the game but apparently 'nice' in a way that means no offending your opponent by having an impolite expression on your face! Do people even realise how offensive this is to Amelie Mauresmo?? I mean the implication was that she was intimidated by Serena and lost the match because Serena wasn't 'nice' enough to her!! Yes, next time play nicely with each other girls, ok?? What the hell is a tennis court, a friggin' play ground???

Am I alone in believing this??? I am really really angry right now but I truly believe that there is something to be angry about!! I hope my post makes sense.

DelMonte
I think sexism is probably at the root of a LOT of the criticisms of the top players (though I'm kind of surprised you never popped up with this rant when people dissed Justine's perceived 'ugliness', which is far more unpleasant and misogynist ). However... I'm not convinced that was the case today. Serena's exactly like Lleyton Hewitt in that the way they pump themselves up after points is extremely irritating. I mean.. yeah, you want to win, you're passionate and determined, but to pump your fist after a fluky net cord or your opponent's double fault is extremely classless. True champions know when it's appropriate to show their aggression... and when it's more important to be courteous. Serena doesn't. She really hams it up as well... there's absolutely no subtlety in her behaviour whatsoever (this is why I'm not convinced she'd be a good actor). The way she pumps her fist and bends double... actually, that's not so much annoying as hilarious.

She can also get very petulant in her demeanour... she acts like she's offended that her opponent should play that well against her. Wake up Serena, you're not the only player out there with talent.

Of course, I don't think she should stop doing any of this... it works for her, and I can see why some people like it. However... if you admire that in Serena, but can't stand it in Lleyton... or vice versa... that's slightly hypocritical.
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post #6 of 47 (permalink) Old May 28th, 2004, 07:27 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sartrista7
I think sexism is probably at the root of a LOT of the criticisms of the top players (though I'm kind of surprised you never popped up with this rant when people dissed Justine's perceived 'ugliness', which is far more unpleasant and misogynist )
You must have missed my thread about the common criticisms that Justine and the Williams sisters are subjected to. I listed many things and one of them was the horrible stereotypes about their physical appearance. I am happy to dig it up for you if you want!

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post #7 of 47 (permalink) Old May 28th, 2004, 07:28 AM
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Great post DelMonte, I tried to rep you but they wouldn't let me.
But you know some of the posters on this board are quite young and come from countries where women are seen as weak, property of their husbands (or fathers and sometimes sons), and are treated like dogs. Seeing aggressive strong women who don't go around trying to please everybody is more than there little minds can bare. They are just threatened by strong aggressive women. I can't really blame them since the earth's society teaches women to accept the passive and submissive gender roles that even more women than men not only conform to, but pass onto their sons and daughters.

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post #8 of 47 (permalink) Old May 28th, 2004, 07:30 AM
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it is an important subject to discuss, but when names are taken into the discussion we, or most of us , start discussing players instead of the subject, sexism.
Are male and female players treated equally by the crowd, media and fans?
No
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post #9 of 47 (permalink) Old May 28th, 2004, 07:31 AM
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Well, i'm gonna say some things:
- only some (stupid) people in the crowd booed Serena for no apparent reason on tuesday (when she entered the court) ! It was just a minority and she wasn't booed anymore. She wasn't booed yesterday when she entered the court ! Maybe those 10 people who booed were sexist. how can I know ?
- when a man does a "bad" thing, he's booed ! (we all know what "bad" means for the crowd)
- when a woman does a "bad" thing, she's booed !

In this forum, there are (too) many people who don't like Serena because she's arrogant : i don't know why you're talking about sexism only now !

There's a great difference between being nice and being arrogant + having a scary face ! There are many other behaviours between : last year there was a kind of rage/angriness in Serena's look that we're not used to see in tennis ! Many people were a bit shocked. (and of course her impressive way of playing increased this feeling).
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post #10 of 47 (permalink) Old May 28th, 2004, 07:35 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justine&coria
Well, i'm gonna say some things:
- only some (stupid) people in the crowd booed Serena for no apparent reason on tuesday (when she entered the court) ! It was just a minority and she wasn't booed anymore. She wasn't booed yesterday when she entered the court ! Maybe those 10 people who booed were sexist. how can I know ?
- when a man does a "bad" thing, he's booed ! (we all know what "bad" means for the crowd)
- when a woman does a "bad" thing, she's booed !

In this forum, there are (too) many people who don't like Serena because she's arrogant : i don't know why you're talking about sexism only now !
There's a great difference between being nice and being arrogant + having a scary face ! There are many other behaviours between : last year there was a kind of rage/angriness in Serena's look that we're not used to see in tennis ! Many people were a bit shocked. (and of course her impressive way of playing increased this feeling).

Justine&coria, I think you are may be missing my point. My point is not so much that women can't be arrogant or do 'bad' things etc, my point is that what constitutes 'bad' or 'arrogant' seems to differ depending on whether the person is a male or female athlete. Also, our expectations of how male and female athletes should behave seem to differ.
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post #11 of 47 (permalink) Old May 28th, 2004, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sartrista7
I think sexism is probably at the root of a LOT of the criticisms of the top players (though I'm kind of surprised you never popped up with this rant when people dissed Justine's perceived 'ugliness', which is far more unpleasant and misogynist )
That has more to do with people's dislike of her gamemanship rather than her actual looks. Truth be told, she doesn't have the worst looking face in the world and actually looked quite nice all dolled up in her wedding dress (I can't believe I just gave her a compliment.)

"I want you to believe in yourself in every positive thing you do, and success will be your portion,"
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post #12 of 47 (permalink) Old May 28th, 2004, 07:39 AM Thread Starter
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er, how to i search for old threads that i posted?
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post #13 of 47 (permalink) Old May 28th, 2004, 07:47 AM
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I don't care about players look. I care about their behavior. And i dislike Serena behavior. But that's what i feel, i'm not saying i am right, and i respect your opinion

And i don't dislike her because i'm french or because she is a threat to Amelie. I don't like Mauresmo either.
Yesterday, i watched Grosjean - Starace, and i was happy Starace won. I like Sébastien a lot, but Potito played very well and deserved his win. And i liked his attitude.
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post #14 of 47 (permalink) Old May 28th, 2004, 07:57 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visions23
I don't care about players look. I care about their behavior. And i dislike Serena behavior. But that's what i feel, i'm not saying i am right, and i respect your opinion

And i don't dislike her because i'm french or because she is a threat to Amelie. I don't like Mauresmo either.
Yesterday, i watched Grosjean - Starace, and i was happy Starace won. I like Sébastien a lot, but Potito played very well and deserved his win. And i liked his attitude.
Visions23, I get your point as well (althogh shame on you for not cheering for th elovely Sebastien yesterday ) but don't you find it interesting that so many people are highlighting Serena's aggressive facial mannerism and her lack of niceness in explaining (not necessarily justifying-- i get that too!) the crowd's reaction towards her? I do think that's significant.
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post #15 of 47 (permalink) Old May 28th, 2004, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelMonte
Visions23, I get your point as well (althogh shame on you for not cheering for th elovely Sebastien yesterday ) but don't you find it interesting that so many people are highlighting Serena's aggressive facial mannerism and her lack of niceness in explaining (not necessarily justifying-- i get that too!) the crowd's reaction towards her? I do think that's significant.
I don't know, i didn't read all posts. Her aggressive facial mannerism is linked to the fact some people dislike her attitude, and maybe more people would like her if she was beautiful. But the main problem is her behavior, and previous points are -in my opinion- just increasing the dislike.
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