"The Williams sisters forced Hingis into retirement"? - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 112 (permalink) Old Apr 28th, 2004, 08:20 PM Thread Starter
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"The Williams sisters forced Hingis into retirement"?

Once again I have to read that in one of the threads here.

It's simply not true. During Martina's career (which I consider to be over after AO 2002), there was exactly ONE match against either Venus and Serena where she "could not compete with them": the US Open semifinal 2001 against Serena, and Martina was already on her way down then. All her other losses against them were hard-fought matches in which she could indeed compete.

IMO there are two other players who are much more "responsible" for Martina's decline: Steffi Graf and Jennifer Capriati.
At FO 1999 it all began. After that Martina has never been as tough mentally as before. She proved that in the US Open final, where Serena had a major choke and Martina couldn't take advantage of it.
Her two GS losses against Venus in 2000 were definitely painful, but it would be ridiculous to say that she couldn't compete. Martina was inferior mentally, but that wasn't just against Venus, that was also against Mary Pierce (FO 2000) and others, and the main reason for that is the Graf-match.
Then, at AO 2001, she beats both Venus and Serena. She trounces Venus, something which Venus never did to her (and they should only have ONE more match, at Miami, which Venus won in two close sets), and she comes back against Serena from 2 breaks down in the 3rd set (again they should only have ONE more match, the already mentioned US Open semifinal).
Then, to everyone's surprise, she loses against Jennifer. And THAT was the beginning of the end.
After that Martina's downfall becomes more and more obvious. She loses against Clijsters, against Sanchez-Vicario, against Ruano-Pascual, she loses twice against Mauresmo, Capriati and Seles. The thrashing against Serena is just another loss for someone who can't compete any more against ANY of the top-players.
Martina gave it one more try in 2002. And she got a golden opportunity to win another slam (without facing a Williams), and she choked it away which was basically the end of her career.

Yes, Martina HAD painful losses against Venus and Serena, but
a) she could compete in these matches
b) they weren't turning points in her career. The results just don't indicate that.
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post #2 of 112 (permalink) Old Apr 28th, 2004, 08:23 PM
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I don't think V& S forced Martina in retirement, but I also don't believe her feet/ankles forced her out either.

"Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated" - George Bernard Shaw




"And for the best of the teen-agers who followed her, and who occasionally referred to her as over the hill, Graf had a ready answer: against top-ranked Martina Hingis, Graf wound up 7-2. Graf's stirring 4-6, 7-5, 6-2 throttling of Hingis at the French Open final this June was perhaps the most emphatic parting shot the game has ever seen. "


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post #3 of 112 (permalink) Old Apr 28th, 2004, 08:26 PM
 
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If anyone forced Martina into retirement it would be Capriati.

Not that I particularly believe that either.
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post #4 of 112 (permalink) Old Apr 28th, 2004, 08:54 PM
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Nooooooooooooo OFF Course Not!

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post #5 of 112 (permalink) Old Apr 28th, 2004, 09:06 PM
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It really depends on how you look at the situation. YEs, as bigger powerful players came along and started hitting the heck out of the ball, martina did have to change her natural style of play and force more agression in her shots. This, compared to her old style of play was a big change and i believe that there must have been some severe effects on her physical well being afterwords. If she was still healthy, and could run about on court counterpunching and fighting, she would still be out there. but her feet wont let her do what she know she NEEDS to do, that is why she left the game. And for martina, if she cant do what she knows she HAS to do in order to compete at the level she is used to, then ofcourse the most logical thing to do is stop playing.

"Talent does what it can; genius does what it must."-martina in a nutshell-
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post #6 of 112 (permalink) Old Apr 28th, 2004, 09:10 PM
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""Talent does what it can; genius does what it must."-martina in a nutshell-"

So translation...retire early?

"Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated" - George Bernard Shaw




"And for the best of the teen-agers who followed her, and who occasionally referred to her as over the hill, Graf had a ready answer: against top-ranked Martina Hingis, Graf wound up 7-2. Graf's stirring 4-6, 7-5, 6-2 throttling of Hingis at the French Open final this June was perhaps the most emphatic parting shot the game has ever seen. "


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post #7 of 112 (permalink) Old Apr 28th, 2004, 09:12 PM
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VENUS WILLIAMS1997 Key Biscayne Hard (O) 32 Martina HINGIS 6-4 6-2 1997 San Diego Hard (O) 16 Martina HINGIS 6-2 6-1 1997 US Open Hard (O) FR Martina HINGIS 6-0 6-4 1998 Sydney Hard (O) 16 Venus WILLIAMS 6-3 4-6 5-7 1998 Indian Wells Hard (O) SF Martina HINGIS 6-0 7-6 1998 Key Biscayne Hard (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 2-6 7-5 2-6 1998 Rome Clay (O) FR Martina HINGIS 6-3 2-6 6-3 1998 French Open Clay (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-3 6-4 1999 Rome Clay (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 4-6 6-1 4-6 1999 San Diego Hard (O) FR Martina HINGIS 6-4 6-0 1999 US Open Hard (O) SF Martina HINGIS 6-1 4-6 6-3 1999 Grand Slam Cup Hard (I) SF Venus WILLIAMS 2-6 7-6(6) 7-9 1999 Zurich Hard (I) FR Venus WILLIAMS 3-6 4-6 1999 W.T.A. Tour Championships Carpet (I) SF Martina HINGIS 6-4 7-6 2000 Wimbledon Grass (O) QF Venus WILLIAMS 3-6 6-4 4-6 2000 U.S. Open Hard (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 6-4 3-6 5-7 2001 Australian Open Hard (O) SF Martina HINGIS 6-1 6-1 2001 Miami Hard (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 3-6 6-7(6) 2002 Hamburg Clay (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 5-7 3-6 Martina HINGIS (SUI) leads 10 : 9


Martina HINGIS (SUI) v Serena WILLIAMS (USA)1998 Key Biscayne Hard (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-3 1-6 7-6 1998 Manhattan Beach Hard (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-4 6-1 1999 Key Biscayne Hard (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 4-6 6-7 1999 Rome Clay (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-2 6-2 1999 Manhattan Beach Hard (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 5-7 1999 US Open Hard (O) FR Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 6-7 2000 Los Angeles Hard (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 6-4 2-6 3-6 2000 Canadian Open Hard (O) FR Martina HINGIS 0-6 6-3 3-0 Retired 2001 Sydney Hard (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-4 7-5 2001 Australian Open Hard (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-2 3-6 8-6 2001 U.S. Open Hard (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 2-6 2002 Scottsdale Hard (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 1-6 6-3 4-6 2002 Miami Hard (O) QF Serena WILLIAMS 4-6 0-6 Serena WILLIAMS (USA) leads 7 : 6

Well, taking a look @ the last three matches for Hingis against both the Williams Sisters, and we might see something that lets us know that she was not as competitive @ all. Once a player knows she can no longer compete with the elite, then she figures there is time for retirement.

Venus' breakthrough against Hingis and @ Wimbledon(=)(she had never gotten through to the semifinals) came in 2000 where she upset Hingis in the quarters(she finished it with a streaking ace out wide to the Hingis backhand on the ad court). Until then, Hingis had a rather mental grip on Venus that was unbreakable. It was hard to forgive Venus after that '01 semifinal in AO, but she came there very out of shape (she admitted it in an interview with Pam and Mary after she defeated Hingis in the sf @ Miami). From then on, I'm sure that Hingis knew that she would no longer be a real threat to Venus and would probably have to play for 2nd whenever VEE was in a tourney.

It was already different with Serena. You know, I know, Martina knew, and Serena knows that her game was always going to be one to give Martina problems. In fact, though Serena lost their first match played, Serena held a match point, and missed an easy backhand long to finish it. Hingis' effort in Aussie in the qf(01) was valiant, but I'm almost sure that that tourney was supposed to be SErena's in the Williams camp (and why I'm absolutely sure that Venus didn't bother training for it). I'm surprised that even one of their last three meetings went to a third set. By then, we all knew that Serena had her number, and even returning from a long layoff from injury and illness in Scottsdale, Serena was still too much for her.

The Williams Sisters may not have driven her to retirement, but they share most of the blame.

-one of those "bad" Williams fans that everyone keeps talking about


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Last edited by Pureracket; Apr 28th, 2004 at 09:18 PM.
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post #8 of 112 (permalink) Old Apr 28th, 2004, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DA FOREHAND
""Talent does what it can; genius does what it must."-martina in a nutshell-"

So translation...retire early?
are you retarded?

"Talent does what it can; genius does what it must."-martina in a nutshell-
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post #9 of 112 (permalink) Old Apr 28th, 2004, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoDominique
Once again I have to read that in one of the threads here.

It's simply not true. During Martina's career (which I consider to be over after AO 2002), there was exactly ONE match against either Venus and Serena where she "could not compete with them":
That's all it takes.
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post #10 of 112 (permalink) Old Apr 28th, 2004, 09:20 PM
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YES they did.

Martina seen the Charge they put on her. Hell, after I have been kicking your butts for points, then all of a sudden you come back and bring your Cox-Strong little sister and then the both of you take turns dismissing me, and I'm a Known Diva!

I'd quit too.
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post #11 of 112 (permalink) Old Apr 28th, 2004, 09:26 PM
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I understand what you are trying to say. However; Compare the early matches between The Williams Sisters and Martina Hingis to the later matches, you will find that the only differance between the two periods is that The Williams Sisters got better, while Hingis stayed at the same level. Hingis stayed at the same level because that was enough to ensure her a win against Serena and Venus!! Hingis is hailed as this Mental genious on the tennis court, but she and her fans failed to realize what everyone else knew all along, that eventually the Williams Sisters game would mature, and they would cut down on the errors, and as a result Hingis's tactic of just pushing ball back over the net until her apponent makes an error would no longer be enough to ensure a win. I don't buy the argument that had Hingis added more power to her game that she would've still been able to beat the Williams'. I think that Hingis won because of her ability to keep balls in play, adding power would have added more errors to her game, and ultimately it would've led to her loosing a lot more!! I have not doubt that had Hingis stayed in the game, she may still have been able to compete with the Williams Sisters. I don't think that she would have won much though, and not only against the Williams' but a lot of other players on the tour. Personally I think that Hingis could accept loosing to anyone else except the Williams Sisters, and this is why she bolted from the tour(see animation)

".. IF U WANT TO BE PROFOUND! IF U REALLY NEED TO JUSTIFY! TAKE A BREATH AND LOOK AROUND..A LOT OF FOLKS DESERVE TO DIE!!"-AUDREY II
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post #12 of 112 (permalink) Old Apr 28th, 2004, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GANGSTABACKHAND!
I understand what you are trying to say. However; Compare the early matches between The Williams Sisters and Martina Hingis to the later matches, you will find that the only differance between the two periods is that The Williams Sisters got better, while Hingis stayed at the same level. Hingis stayed at the same level because that was enough to ensure her a win against Serena and Venus!! Hingis is hailed as this Mental genious on the tennis court, but she and her fans failed to realize what everyone else knew all along, that eventually the Williams Sisters game would mature, and they would cut down on the errors, and as a result Hingis's tactic of just pushing ball back over the net until her apponent makes an error would no longer be enough to ensure a win. I don't buy the argument that had Hingis added more power to her game that she would've still been able to beat the Williams'. I think that Hingis won because of her ability to keep balls in play, adding power would have added more errors to her game, and ultimately it would've led to her loosing a lot more!! I have not doubt that had Hingis stayed in the game, she may still have been able to compete with the Williams Sisters. I don't think that she would have won much though, and not only against the Williams' but a lot of other players on the tour. Personally I think that Hingis could accept loosing to anyone else except the Williams Sisters, and this is why she bolted from the tour(see animation)
I don't know about that...but I don't think she needed to add much more sting to her strokes, but a better serve def. would have been necessary. What Martina lacked in her latter years was the spunk to take it to her opponenets, but like Venus' says in her Wilson's leather commercial..."Confidence is a fragile thing!"

"Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated" - George Bernard Shaw




"And for the best of the teen-agers who followed her, and who occasionally referred to her as over the hill, Graf had a ready answer: against top-ranked Martina Hingis, Graf wound up 7-2. Graf's stirring 4-6, 7-5, 6-2 throttling of Hingis at the French Open final this June was perhaps the most emphatic parting shot the game has ever seen. "


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post #13 of 112 (permalink) Old Apr 28th, 2004, 09:38 PM
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If you talk to Hingis, she would tell you that the sisters were the toughest players she had to play against.
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post #14 of 112 (permalink) Old Apr 28th, 2004, 09:40 PM
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"For me, to struggle with injuries, have three operations, come back when you are not sure what's going to happen and be in pain all the time . . . I don't want to live like that. Having to live on painkillers and worrying about your health, that's not the lifestyle I want because once you struggle with your body then it stops being fun. I never knew that when I was 16, 17. I was just playing easy out there and winning things. But all of a sudden my body was in my way.

"My foot gets inflamed all the time, when I play for like four or five hours, so I could never get back into professional sport like that. It's good enough for the daily business but it would never stand playing week in, week out and I would never want to be just another one of the 128 players in the draw. It's not really my style. I'd rather get better at something else."

...I'm fairly sure this is why she retired...Martina is not a liar...thanks...
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post #15 of 112 (permalink) Old Apr 28th, 2004, 09:44 PM
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Of course she would say that!! Because it was about a lot more than just the tennis! It was the sisters taking over her turf, her sport, her status, etc. and for a while she defended it well, but when she couldn't fight the good fight anymore she did the right thing in conceeding and leaving the tour. ANKLE INJURY MY FOOT See! Hingis was very smart indeed, she realized that it was all over for her and she left!!

".. IF U WANT TO BE PROFOUND! IF U REALLY NEED TO JUSTIFY! TAKE A BREATH AND LOOK AROUND..A LOT OF FOLKS DESERVE TO DIE!!"-AUDREY II
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