Exactly how good a red clay player is Venus Williams? - TennisForum.com

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post #1 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 2004, 02:57 PM Thread Starter
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Exactly how good a red clay player is Venus Williams?

She plays about three tournaments on it mst years. A Tier II, a Tier I, and Roland Garros. She's had some excellent results and some bad ones.

CH-'99 T1 Rome
CH-'99 T2 Hamburg
CH-'01 T2 Hamburg
FR-'02 GS French Open
FR-'98 T1 Rome
FR-'02 T2 Hamburg
FR-'03 T2 Warsaw

QF-'00 GS French Open
QF-'98 GS French Open
QF-'00 T2 Hamburg

16-'99 GS French Open
16-'03 GS French Open
16-'00 T1 Rome
16-'01 T1 Berlin

64-'97 GS French Open
r1-'01 GS French Open

Serena and Justine obviously have to be considered better red clay players. Venus, Kim and Amelie actually have pretty similiar red clay records. Look at championships and finals in GS, T1 and T2 tournaments. Venus' record is above.

Kim has won Rome, won Hamburg and made the RG final twice and the Rome final once.
Amelie has won Berlin, won Warsaw, and made the finals at Berlin and Rome twice. Amelie's inability to make any headway at RG is somewhat glaring.

Jenn, of course, WON the French. But she's way off her game, so I'd same Venus is a better player on red clay NOW, even though Jenn is obviously more accomplished.
And of course, unless she wins the French, Venus' record on red clay will never equal Conchi's.

At least on the record, it seems safe to say that Venus is one of the top five red clay players in the world.

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post #2 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 2004, 03:02 PM
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thats safe to say!
I would even say Third behind Serena, Justine, Venus....Kim, Amelie

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post #3 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 2004, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vogus
if Venus is on her game and motivated, the surface of play just doesn't matter that much. She's a great player on red clay if she's on, and clearly capable of beating all challengers and winning RG. Too often, the sisters' fans have used the court surface as an excuse when they lost.
Since when did anyone use clay as an excuse??
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post #4 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 2004, 03:19 PM
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hi Knizz, i decided that i'm not in the mood to start an argument right now, so if you could delete that post quoting me, that would be a favor - thanx.
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post #5 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 2004, 03:20 PM
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I'd say Venus is better than most of the clay court "Specialists" on their favorite surface.
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post #6 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 2004, 03:22 PM
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Vee didn't "get worse" on the red Stuff Since '99, IMO. The others got better. Green Gives her more pace, Something She "eats for breakfast".
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post #7 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 2004, 03:27 PM
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I think Venus' record on red clay has been overshadowed by her great accomplishment on the hard and grass courts and hence the impression that she isn't a great clay courter. Her results speak for themselves and she is definitely good on that stuff. I hope this is the year she wins RG.

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post #8 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 2004, 03:32 PM
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I remember getting in a huge debate about this very subject a little after I first joined the board. It took a lot of posts to put my point together: Venus is very good on clay. I think some people can't help comparing Venus' performance on clay to her performance on, let's say, grass. This somehow translates (in their minds) to her not being a good clay player overall.

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post #9 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 2004, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tennnisfannn
I think Venus' record on red clay has been overshadowed by her great accomplishment on the hard and grass courts and hence the impression that she isn't a great clay courter. Her results speak for themselves and she is definitely good on that stuff. I hope this is the year she wins RG.
I hadn't seen your post, but...Ditto.

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post #10 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 2004, 03:35 PM
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Currently it is impossible to say who is better. It's a mess. Henin is sick. Serena is injured. Kim is coming off injury. I though think at their best level these three are qutie well ahead of the rest. Then we have Venus, Amelie and Capriati.

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post #11 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 2004, 03:44 PM
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i will never forget the way she mauled seles a few ago at RG (and monica was playing well). she just moved so gracefully to every ball and just struck winners from all over the court. i think in some ways it benefits her groundstrokes beause she gets more time to set up.
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post #12 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 2004, 03:46 PM
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Venus is capable on red clay, but you can tell it's not a natural surface for her - Her technique on the surface is below the level of many others, and that's to be expected becasue she didn't grow up on the stuff.

*However*, Venus is able to make up for this most times for 2 key reasons. One is her mental strength. Sure players like Amelie are probably better suited to clay, and better clay court players in general, but the difference is that she has not yet been able to find her complete focus yet at Roland Garros and this is why she hasn't gone as far as she is capable of going. Venus on the other hand is so mentally tough that she's been able to reach the final. The second key is her fitness. She may not be a natural mover on clay, but she is such a great athlete that she can afford a bit of that extra time lost by not always making the right moves into her shots. She also has the strength so that when she is off balance and maybe a bit out of position, she can still muscle the ball back over for winners.

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post #13 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 2004, 05:05 PM
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Ok, what exactly is the difference between Green Clay and Red Clay? Is green clay ground concrete blocks (cement-like mixture?) and red clay ground bricks? What materials and processes are used to produce each?

One thing for sure, they are both labelled clay. Where does the coloration come from? Finally, why does the ball bounce faster or higher on one versus the other, if at all? Please save me a long search.

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post #14 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 2004, 05:16 PM
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Serena better than Venus on Red Clay? Put there results and or big wins on the red dirt side-by-side and see who's looks best...I'm quite sure it would be Venus.

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post #15 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 2004, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by switz
i will never forget the way she mauled seles a few ago at RG (and monica was playing well). she just moved so gracefully to every ball and just struck winners from all over the court. i think in some ways it benefits her groundstrokes beause she gets more time to set up.
Monica wasn't playing well. She was down 5-0 in her opening match before winning it 6-7, 6-3, 6-0 against Angeles Montolio. The rain saved her. She struggled to reach the quarters. She played a decent match but no where near the level of what she did in Melbourne earlier that year. Venus, though, played a wonderful match and deserved her comfortable win.

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