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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old Feb 14th, 2004, 02:45 PM Thread Starter
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You got solved

Players come along, dominate, then don't. So return, some don't. Sometimes they get injured. Sometimes they get fat, arrested or fall in love. The example I'm going to use is Hingis, because its so dramatic.

She stomped everyone through 99, played the power players even in 2000, then in 2001, the wheels fell off. And I'm sure her foot problems had something to do with it. But that doesn't explain losing to Amy Frazier or Virginia Ruano Pascual!



99 Sydney FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT 4-6 3-6
-------------------------------------------------------------
99 Australian Open 64 W DEMENTIEVA 6-3 6-2
99 Australian Open 32 W DOKIC 6-1 6-2
99 Australian Open 16 W COETZER 6-3 6-7(4) 6-1
99 Australian Open QF W PIERCE 6-3 6-4
99 Australian Open SF W SELES 6-2 6-4
99 Australian Open FR W MAURESMO 6-2 6-3
-------------------------------------------------------------
99 Paris QF L Amelie MAURESMO 6-2 1-6 3-6
99 Indian Wells QF L Chanda RUBIN 3-6 6-7
99 Key Biscayne SF L Serena WILLIAMS 4-6 6-7
99 Rome QF W Serena WILLIAMS 6-2 6-2
99 Rome SF L Venus WILLIAMS 4-6 6-1 4-6
99 French Open 64 W Amelie MAURESMO 6-3 6-3
99 French Open FR L Steffi GRAF 6-4 5-7 2-6
99 Wimbledon 128 L Jelena DOKIC 2-6 0-6
99 San Diego FR W Venus WILLIAMS 6-4 6-0
99 Manhattan Beach SF L Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 5-7
99 Canadian Open SF W Mary PIERCE 7-6 6-3
99 Canadian Open FR W Monica SELES 6-4 6-4
99 US Open SF W Venus WILLIAMS 6-1 4-6 6-3
99 US Open FR L Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 6-7
99 Grand Slam Cup QF W Amelie MAURESMO 7-6 6-2
99 Grand Slam Cup SF L Venus WILLIAMS 2-6 7-6 7-9
99 Filderstadt FR W Mary PIERCE 6-4 6-1
99 Zurich FR L Venus WILLIAMS 3-6 4-6
99 Philadelphia FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT 3-6 4-6
99 T-Championships QF W Mary PIERCE 6-1 6-2
99 T-Championships SF W Venus WILLIAMS 6-4 7-6
99 T-Championships FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT 4-6 2-6
-------------------------------------------------------------
00 Sydney SF L Amelie MAURESMO 5-7 3-6
00 Australian Open FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT 1-6 5-7
00 Scottsdale SF W Mary PIERCE 6-4 6-3
00 Scottsdale FR N Lindsay DAVENPORT N/P
00 Indian Wells QF W Monica SELES 6-3 6-1
00 Indian Wells SF W Mary PIERCE 6-4 6-2
00 Indian Wells FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT 6-4 4-6 0-6
00 Miami SF W Monica SELES 6-0 6-0
00 Miami FR W Lindsay DAVENPORT 6-3 6-2
00 Berlin SF L Conchita MARTINEZ 5-7 4-6
00 French Open SF L Mary PIERCE 4-6 7-5 2-6
00 's-Hertogenbosch SF W Jennifer CAPRIATI 7-5 6-2
00 Wimbledon QF L Venus WILLIAMS 3-6 6-4 4-6
00 San Diego QF L Amy FRAZIER 3-6 3-6

- To my mind, this is the match that gave the rest of
- the tour the 'bluepint' on how to beat Hingis.
- Corner to corner power, keep your UEs down.
- Not to say it would always work, but from this
- point forward, lesser players all tried it.
- (Well, 99% of the tour was 'lesser')

00 Los Angeles SF L Serena WILLIAMS 6-4 2-6 3-6
00 Canadian Open FR W Serena WILLIAMS 0-6 6-3 3-0 Ret
00 U.S. Open QF W Monica SELES 6-0 7-5
00 U.S. Open SF L Venus WILLIAMS 6-4 3-6 5-7
00 Zurich SF W Jennifer CAPRIATI 6-3 6-2
00 Zurich FR W Lindsay DAVENPORT 6-4 4-6 7-5
00 Moscow SF W Amelie MAURESMO 7-5 6-3
00 Philadelphia FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT 6-7 4-6
00 T-Championships FR W Monica SELES 6-7 6-4 6-4
-------------------------------------------------------------
01 Sydney FR W Lindsay DAVENPORT 6-3 4-6 7-5
01 Australian Open QF W Serena WILLIAMS 6-2 3-6 8-6
01 Australian Open SF W Venus WILLIAMS 6-1 6-1

- The last time she would ever beat Venus.
- In fact, the last time she'd beat Venus OR Serena.
- Who saw THAT coming?
- But check out her record going forward.
- Except for Amelie once, and Monica (who truthfully
- was just too fat to compete at the highest level,
- at this point) Martina never beat another power
- player again. And lost to ASV, Ruano Pascual,
- Hantuchova, Myskina, Petrova, dokic and Dementieva.
- All players you'd expect her to toy with.

01 Australian Open FR L Jennifer CAPRIATI 4-6 3-6
01 Tokyo FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT 7-6 4-6 2-6
01 Indian Wells SF L Kim CLIJSTERS 2-6 6-2 1-6
01 Miami SF L Venus WILLIAMS 3-6 6-7
01 Amelia Island QF L A SANCHEZ-VICARIO 2-6 4-6
01 Charleston QF W Amelie MAURESMO 7-5 6-2
01 Charleston FR L Jennifer CAPRIATI 0-6 6-4 4-6
01 Berlin SF L Amelie MAURESMO 6-2 0-6 4-6
01 Rome SF L Amelie MAURESMO 4-6 6-7
01 French Open SF L Jennifer CAPRIATI 4-6 3-6
01 Wimbledon 128 L V RUANO PASCUAL 4-6 2-6
01 San Diego SF L Monica SELES 3-6 4-6
01 Los Angeles SF L Monica SELES 3-6 6-1 4-6
01 U.S. Open SF L Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 2-6
01 Moscow QF L Elena DEMENTIEVA 2-6 2-6
01 Filderstadt SF L Lindsay DAVENPORT 1-2 Ret
-------------------------------------------------------------
02 Australian Open SF W Monica SELES 4-6 6-1 6-4
02 Australian Open FR L Jennifer CAPRIATI 6-4 6-7 2-6
02 Tokyo FR W Monica SELES 7-6 4-6 6-3
02 Scottsdale SF L Serena WILLIAMS 1-6 6-3 4-6
02 Indian Wells SF W Monica SELES 6-3 6-2
02 Indian Wells FR L Dani HANTUCHOVA 3-6 4-6
02 Miami QF L Serena WILLIAMS 4-6 0-6
02 Hamburg SF L Venus WILLIAMS 5-7 3-6
02 Canadian Open QF L Jelena DOKIC 4-6 3-6
02 New Haven QF L Anastasia MYSKINA 7-6 4-6 0-6
02 U.S. Open 16 L Monica SELES 4-6 2-6


Martina wasn't 100% for these, but then Venus wasn't
100% when Martina last beat her either. I'm not sure
whether to pay attention to conditioning as a factor or
not.

02 Moscow 32 L Nadia PETROVA 2-6 2-6
02 Filderstadt 16 L Elena DEMENTIEVA 3-6 1-6

The tour figured her out. Don't fool around. Just try to beat her to death.

That's a lot of example to make a point. 'The tour', as an entity, tries to solve people. When a dominant player loses, more and more players will try that same approach when facing that dominant player.

You beat Justine the same way you beat Martina. Consistent corenr-to-corner power, with few UEs. Well, let me re-phrase that. You TRY to beat Justine the same way you TRIED to beat Martina. You'll note that it works for Venus, it doesn't work for Lindsay, and it only works some of the time for Serena.

You don't beat Serena that way. To beat Serena, you mix it up, but you have to have plenty of power when your opportunity comes. Again, it doesn't always work. We are talking about the winners of the last seven GS tournaments.

But it's what you TRY.

'Solved' is when EVERYBODY tries it, and it works for most of them.

Jenn - Well, Jenn makes it easy by getting fat. Conditioning is so much a part of her game, that we won't even know how she'd play with three years of good conditioning.

Lindsay - Make her run. She's not as good when she can't set up. Of course, you have to be able to return HER groundies, which most of the tour can't.

etc etc etc.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old Feb 14th, 2004, 02:48 PM
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I don't like the part about Jen....not very good, sorry...
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old Feb 14th, 2004, 02:51 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Capriati.Fan
I don't like the part about Jen....not very good, sorry...
Well, trying interpreting it this way. When Jenn's is top shape, she's a GS winner. And often ion her career, she's not losing because others players are better, she's losing because of herself. Drugs, etting arrested, gettingout of shape. All too often, it wasn't the opposition beating Jenn, it was Jenn's lack of preparedness.

If she had been in shape her whole career, she'd have two or three times the number of GS wins she has.

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Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old Feb 14th, 2004, 03:37 PM
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nice analysis volcana! even though i've hated your guts in previous posts , this thread was cool. have you ever considerd a career in sports journalism?? you seem to know your SHIT .

hollywood's girls:




ana ivanovic daniela hantuchova jelena jankovic martina hingis


and... jennifer capriati !!
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old Feb 14th, 2004, 04:13 PM
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- Jinpachi Mishima
- Jedah Douma
"恐れてはいけない. 私は最初であり, 最後である"
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old Feb 14th, 2004, 04:24 PM
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as always, so true
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old Feb 14th, 2004, 05:39 PM
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hitting corner to corner, keeping UE's down. isn't that how EVERYONE plays and playing like that is asking for a lot, since Hingis ran down a lot of hard hit shots, and you're bound to hit UE's unless you're having a really good day

Jelena Dokic.Vera Zvonareva.Tatiana Golovin.Mary Pierce.Monica Seles.Martina Hingis.Anna Kournikova


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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old Feb 14th, 2004, 05:47 PM
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...a back injury explains losing to Ruano Pascual...shouldn't have played...but she did...hth...thanks...
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old Feb 14th, 2004, 05:56 PM
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Its been a long time since Jen has been into drugs or gotten arrested. So don't say that. She has never been fat. Do you watch how she runs down every ball she is quick. It isn't fat she is built thats all. She is a great player and this year she is going to show everyone that she is in shape. Only 9 more days!!!!

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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old Feb 14th, 2004, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFilaJ-Cap#1
Its been a long time since Jen has been into drugs or gotten arrested. So don't say that. She has never been fat. Do you watch how she runs down every ball she is quick. It isn't fat she is built thats all. She is a great player and this year she is going to show everyone that she is in shape. Only 9 more days!!!!
The hope of a fan...how endearing

"誰も私を止める停が出来なかったか"
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- Jedah Douma
"恐れてはいけない. 私は最初であり, 最後である"
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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old Feb 14th, 2004, 06:53 PM
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What about if someone wins say, 5 titles @ age 19 (and wins the Newcomer of the Year award)? Then she gets involved with a guru old enough 2B her father, only 2B rescued by someone Already A conman, though not yet convicted For Fraud.

So he "ratifies" the guru he Dished Dirt about having fired the coach who guided the recent Success, So as 2B the only person she can feel any bonding with. (And her 2 subsequent 2-year coaches, for basically the same reason).
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old Feb 14th, 2004, 06:53 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naldo
hitting corner to corner, keeping UE's down. isn't that how EVERYONE plays.
No. Playing that way against Serena is pointless. And if you noticed inthe OZ final, Justine played most of her balls down the middle vs Kim.

Quote:
and playing like that is asking for a lot, since Hingis ran down a lot of hard hit shots
Yes but look at all those losses in 2001 and 2002 to players she'd previously handled easily. It worked.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old Feb 14th, 2004, 06:58 PM Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=RedFilaJ-Cap#1]Its been a long time since Jen has been into drugs or gotten arrested.[quote]

Yess, and while she was doing that, IMHO, she shouild have been winning GS titles. She stopped herself. It wasn't that others were demonstrably better.

Quote:
She has never been fat. Do you watch how she runs down every ball she is quick. It isn't fat she is built thats all.
Compare Filderstadt 2003 to OZ 2001.

Quote:
She is a great player
At last something we can agree on.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old Feb 14th, 2004, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willow
...a back injury explains losing to Ruano Pascual...shouldn't have played...but she did...hth...thanks...
i love Martina but i gotta say this:

she was giving an interview to an English newspaper just before Wimbledon, and she was there kicking around a ball.

so she didn't do herself any favours there
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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old Feb 14th, 2004, 07:06 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyRoger
What about if someone wins say, 5 titles @ age 19 (and wins the Newcomer of the Year award)? Then she gets involved with a guru old enough 2B her father, only 2B rescued by someone Already A conman, though not yet convicted For Fraud.

So he "ratifies" the guru he Dished Dirt about having fired the coach who guided the recent Success, So as 2B the only person she can feel any bonding with. (And her 2 subsequent 2-year coaches, for basically the same reason).
Well, that depends. If the person is oh, 25 years old now, I'd say they're an adult and responsible for their own actions, and all that stuff about gursu and conmen is just an excuse for failure to perform. If, OTOH, the person is still 19, well their still an adult, and responsible for their own actions, but like many 19 year olds, she may make mistakes. We all do. She may possibly still be adjusting to her own decisions and taking responsibility for them. In that case, I'd say give them some time to realize Mommy and Daddy are going to save them from screwing up anymore, and they better get it together.

The 19 year old I'd tell 'wake up before you fuck up.'

The 25 year old has made life choices, and we all need to accept those choices, rather than treating a 25 year old like they're 13.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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