A player's historical greatness is measured in slam titles - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 80 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 2004, 06:45 AM Thread Starter
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A player's historical greatness is measured in slam titles

I'm not saying that's fair. Just true. We can't even GET stats on a lot of old time players, outside of GS titles. So for comparison purposes GS titles is it. That said, here's the ranking of players all-time by GS titles.

THey are ordered by GS singles titles, with a tie-breaker of total GS titles. That actually makes doubles and mixed LESS important than I truly believe they are, but any crude method of estimation has flaws. So too this.
Second tie-breaker is who won a slam most RECENTLY. Hence Justine ahead of Jenn.

By the by.

Maybe today's ON-COURT competition was tougher, but yesterday's OFF-COURT competition, i.e. sexism, was WAY worse. So as far as I'm concerned, it all evens out. Margaret Osborne duPont had to face a LOT more societal flak to even step on the court than Hingis or Williams (2x) ever did.

Active players in bold

The Big Six.

The undisputed Queens of the Court. Or the Queen and her Undisputed Court, except, of course, the Queen IS a Court.

01: 24 - xx - xx (62) 1960-1973 Margaret Smith Court

02: 22 - 01 - 00 (23) 1987-1999 Steffi Graf

03: 19 - 09 - 03 (31) 1923-1938 Helen Wills Moody

04: 18 - 31 - 08 (57) 1978-2003 Martina Navratilova

05: 18 - 03 - 00 (21) 1974-1986 Chris Evert Lloyd

06: 12 - 16 - 11 (39) 1966-1975 Billie Jean King (Thank u, Andy T)

Twin Tragedies if Tennis

07: 09 - 02 - 00 (11) 1951-1954 Maureen Connolly
08: 09 - 00 - 00 (09) 1990-1996 Monica Seles

Un-appreciated Greatness

09: 08 - 08 - 03 (16) 1919-1926 Suzanne Lenglen
10: 08 - 02 - 02 (12) 1915-1926 Molla Bjurstedt Mallory

What's intersting is that most people would consider that to be the top ten, except they'd switch Molla Mallory for Evonne Goolagong. So for a crude method of ranking players all -time, it's pretty good.

They were never the best

11: 07 - 11 - 00 (18) 1959-1966 Maria Bueno
12: 07 - 06 - 01 (14) 1971-1980 Evonne Goolagong

The others

13: 06 - 21 - 09 (36) 1946-1950 Margaret Osborne duPont
14: 06 - 21 - 08 (35) 1947-1955 Louise Brough
15: 06 - 14 - 10 (30) 1949-1955 Doris Hart
16: 06 - 10 - 00 (16) 1937-1951 Nancye Wynne Bolton
17: 06 - 04 - 02 (12) 1999-2003 Serena Williams
18: 06 - 00 - 00 (06) 1908-1908 Maud Barger-Wallach
19: 06 - 00 - 00 (06) 1886-1900 Blanche Bingley

NOTE: Sererna is two GS singles titles form taking the #10 spot form Molla Mallory.

20: 05 - 06 - 07 (18) 1936-1940 Alice Marble
21: 05 - 07 - 00 (12) 1997-1999 Martina Hingis
22: 05 - 05 - 00 (10) 1956-1958 Althea Gibson
23: 05 - 05 - 00 (10) 1925-1930 Daphne Akhurst
24: 05 - 03 - 01 (09) 1932-1936 Helen Jacobs
25: 05 - 00 - 00 (08) 1942-1946 Pauline Betz
26: 05 - 00 - 00 (05) 1895-1908 Charlotte Cooper Sterry
27: 05 - 00 - 00 (05) 1887-1893 Charlotte Dod

28: 04 - 12 - 01 (17) 1951-1957 Shirley Fry
29: 04 - 07 - 06 (17) 1909-1919 Hazel Hotchkiss
30: 04 - 06 - 04 (14) 1989-1998 Arantxa Sanchez Vicario
31: 04 - 04 - 02 (10) 2000-2003 Venus Williams
32: 04 - 02 - 02 (08) 1896-1905 Elisabeth Moore
33: 04 - 01 - 00 (05) 1980-1987 Hana Mandlikova
34: 04 - 00 - 00 (04) 1910-1914 Dorothea Lambert

35: 03 - 13 - 03 (19) 1960-1961 Darlene Hard
36: 03 - 07 - 03 (13) 1895-1898 Juliette Atkinson
37: 03 - 06 - 04 (13) 1912-1914 Mary Browne
38: 03 - 04 - 00 (07) 1968-1977 Virginia Wade
39: 03 - 03 - 00 (06) 1998-2001 Lindsay Davenport
40: 03 - 00 - 00 (03) 2003-2004 Justine Henin-Hardenne
41: 03 - 00 - 00 (03) 2000-2001 Jennifer Capriati

4x: 03 - xx - xx (xx) 1935-1937 Hilda Krahwinkel Sperling*
4x: 03 - xx - xx (xx) 1933-1936 Joan Hartigan*

* need doubles and mixed info

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Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.

Last edited by Volcana; Feb 9th, 2004 at 10:58 PM.
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post #2 of 80 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 2004, 06:52 AM Thread Starter
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If you limit this to the Open Era, Serena is #8, which IMHO is a perfectly good reason to include everybody. Serena Willaims has in no way had the eighth best career all-time.

And BTW, Martina Navratilova was the best player all-time, with Margaret Curt Smith a close but distinct second.

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Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #3 of 80 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 2004, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
I'm not saying that's fair. Just true. We can't even GETR stats on a lot of old time players, outside of GS titles. SO for comparison purposes GS titles is it. That said, here's the ranking of players all-time by GS titles.

THey are ordered by GS singles titles, with a tie-breaker of total GS titles. Tha actually makes doubles and mixed LESS important than I truly believe they are, but any crude method of estimation has flaws. So too this.

By the by.

Mayhe today's ONCOURT competition was tougher, but yesterday's OFF-COURT competetion, i.e. sexism, was WAY worse. So as far as I'm concerned, it all evens out. Margaret Osborne duPont had to face a LOT more societal flak to even step on the court than Hingis or Williams (2x) ever did.

Active players in bold

The Big Six.

The undisputed Queens of the Court. Or the Queen and her Undisputed Court, except, of course, the Queen IS a Court.

01: 24 - xx - xx (62) 1960-1973 Margaret Smith Court

02: 22 - 01 - 00 (23) 1987-1999 Steffi Graf

03: 19 - 09 - 03 (31) 1923-1938 Helen Wills Moody

04: 18 - 31 - 08 (57) 1978-2003 Martina Navratilova

05: 18 - 03 - 00 (21) 1974-1986 Chris Evert Lloyd

06: 12 - 08 - 10 (30) 1966-1975 Billie Jean King

Twin Tragedies if Tennis

07: 09 - 02 - 00 (11) 1951-1954 Maureen Connolly
08: 09 - 00 - 00 (09) 1990-1996 Monica Seles

Un-appreciated Greatness

09: 08 - 08 - 03 (16) 1919-1926 Suzanne Lenglen
10: 08 - 02 - 02 (12) 1915-1926 Molla Bjurstedt Mallory

What's intersting is that most people would consider that to be the top ten, except they'd switch Molla Mallory for Evonne Goolagong. So for a crude method of ranking players all -time, it's pretty good.

They were never the best

11: 07 - 11 - 00 (18) 1959-1966 Maria Bueno
12: 07 - 06 - 01 (14) 1971-1980 Evonne Goolagong

The others

13: 06 - 21 - 09 (36) 1946-1950 Margaret Osborne duPont
14: 06 - 21 - 08 (35) 1947-1955 Louise Brough
15: 06 - 14 - 10 (30) 1949-1955 Doris Hart
16: 06 - 10 - 00 (16) 1937-1951 Nancye Wynne Bolton
17: 06 - 04 - 02 (12) 1999-2003 Serena Williams
18: 06 - 00 - 00 (06) 1908-1908 Maud Barger-Wallach
19: 06 - 00 - 00 (06) 1886-1900 Blanche Bingley

NOTE: Sererna is two GS singles titles form taking the #10 spot form Molla Mallory.

20: 05 - 06 - 07 (18) 1936-1940 Alice Marble
21: 05 - 07 - 00 (12) 1997-1999 Martina Hingis
22: 05 - 05 - 00 (10) 1956-1958 Althea Gibson
23: 05 - 05 - 00 (10) 1925-1930 Daphne Akhurst
24: 05 - 03 - 01 (09) 1932-1936 Helen Jacobs
25: 05 - 00 - 00 (08) 1942-1946 Pauline Betz
26: 05 - 00 - 00 (05) 1895-1908 Charlotte Cooper Sterry
27: 05 - 00 - 00 (05) 1887-1893 Charlotte Dod

28: 04 - 12 - 01 (17) 1951-1957 Shirley Fry
29: 04 - 07 - 06 (17) 1909-1919 Hazel Hotchkiss
30: 04 - 06 - 03 (13) 1989-1998 Arantxa Sanchez Vicario
31: 04 - 04 - 02 (10) 2000-2003 Venus Williams
32: 04 - 02 - 02 (08) 1896-1905 Elisabeth Moore
33: 04 - 01 - 00 (05) 1980-1987 Hana Mandlikova
34: 04 - 00 - 00 (04) 1910-1914 Dorothea Lambert

35: 03 - 13 - 03 (19) 1960-1961 Darlene Hard
36: 03 - 07 - 03 (13) 1895-1898 Juliette Atkinson
37: 03 - 06 - 04 (13) 1912-1914 Mary Browne
38: 03 - 04 - 00 (07) 1968-1977 Virginia Wade
39: 03 - 03 - 00 (06) 1998-2001 Lindsay Davenport
40: 03 - 00 - 00 (03) 2003-2004 Justine Henin-Hardenne

Margaret Court's stats are 24 - 19 - 19 (62) 1960-1975 with two unplayed finals in the Aussie mixed not counted. Navratilova has 58 titles, not 57 (1974-2003). Your figures for Evonne Goolagong include a shared women's doubles title (final unplayed) at the Aussie Open. King's last title was in 1979. Capriati also has three singles GS titles. Ann Haydon-Jones is missing:
3 - 3 - 1 (7) 1961-1969 plus one unplayed Aussie mixed final.

I agree that GS titles are a way of separating champions into "tiers" of greatness but within each group you can't just accept the numbers as a ranking order.

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post #4 of 80 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 2004, 07:46 AM
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Does anyone have a list of GS singles titles?? I can't find any..
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post #5 of 80 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 2004, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
If you limit this to the Open Era, Serena is #8, which IMHO is a perfectly good reason to include everybody. Serena Willaims has in no way had the eighth best career all-time.

And BTW, Martina Navratilova was the best player all-time, with Margaret Curt Smith a close but distinct second.
Don't be so quick to make that distinction about Navratilova & Court. Court won more tournaments (non-Slam) than Navratilova, more Grand Slam singles, more Grand Slam titles - and in about half the years that it took Navratilova to do it. Plus her strike rate in the Slams is far superior to that of Martina (ie. she won a much higher percentage of Slams that she competed in). Happy to dig out the facts. Even if you take away Margaret's Aussie Open wins, her strike rate at the other 3 slams is vastly superior to that of Martina. The only ones who come close in terms of GS singles strike rate in the modern era are Graf and Evert.

You can check out the following thread which has a lot of data on Margaret Court and the Grand Slam strike rates... and if you scroll to the next page you can see I even did the stats without Court's Aussie Open wins and made some other changes to show Martina in a better light:
http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.p...4&page=4&pp=40

Last edited by tennisvideos; Feb 9th, 2004 at 08:46 AM.
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post #6 of 80 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 2004, 08:44 AM
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IMO, Graf is #1, and Helen Wills a close 2nd. Wills would be #1, but without the Australian, she cannot be the greatest. Although she never did play in it. How can you win something if you don't even play in it?

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post #7 of 80 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 2004, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisvideos
Don't be so quick to make that distinction about Navratilova & Court. Court won more tournaments (non-Slam) than Navratilova, more Grand Slam singles, more Grand Slam titles - and in about half the years that it took Navratilova to do it. Plus her strike rate in the Slams is far superior to that of Martina (ie. she won a much higher percentage of Slams that she competed in). Happy to dig out the facts. Even if you take away Margaret's Aussie Open wins, her strike rate at the other 3 slams is vastly superior to that of Martina. The only ones who come close in terms of GS singles strike rate in the modern era are Graf and Evert.

You can check out the following thread which has a lot of data on Margaret Court and the Grand Slam strike rates... and if you scroll to the next page you can see I even did the stats without Court's Aussie Open wins and made some other changes to show Martina in a better light:
http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.p...4&page=4&pp=40
Hey tennisvideos! How are you doing?

Tennisvideos knows my views on this already but for the others:

Court's record is indeed phenomenal, with more or less 200 singles titles (we're trying to establish the most exact numbers possible for her and all the greats in Blast From the Past) 1960-1976 despite having been off the circuit from Aug 66-Dec67, from Aug 71-Jul 72 and from Jan-Aug 74. It's undeniable that statistically she is the most prolific winner since 1945 (I don't know enough about before to say) and she deserves to be up there with the very very best. After that, each of us has his/her own perspective and - thank heavens - there is no clinching argument; we should celebrate them all.

My own vote goes to Martina Navratilova but my opinion's only as good as anyone else's.

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post #8 of 80 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 2004, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
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You're right about Court. In fact, she's who I pick when I run into these 'who's the greatest ever' threads. The reason my pick goes to Martina is Chris. I got to see the whole rivalry, and there's an arguement for CHRIS as best ever. So Martina had the toughest competition.

But as you say, that's just my opinion. Objective fact says Court.

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post #9 of 80 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 2004, 10:33 AM
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Hi Andy T

Hope to catch up with you one day at Roland Garros Perhaps 2005.
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post #10 of 80 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 2004, 10:39 AM
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Hey you forgot Capriati. I would also like to see those who won two or a single slam.

Rena- a tennis great! 22 at striking distance.
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post #11 of 80 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 2004, 10:49 AM
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Why don't you have Capriati on your list?

If you don't like her, at least make her "tied" with Henin-Hardenne.

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post #12 of 80 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 2004, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
You're right about Court. In fact, she's who I pick when I run into these 'who's the greatest ever' threads. The reason my pick goes to Martina is Chris. I got to see the whole rivalry, and there's an arguement for CHRIS as best ever. So Martina had the toughest competition.

But as you say, that's just my opinion. Objective fact says Court.
Yes, have to agree that Evert was one of the greatest.

Then again, Court had to contend with a multitude of greats like:
Darlene Hard, Maria Bueno, Billie-Jean King, Evonne Goolagong ... and while most of them were at their peak.
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post #13 of 80 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 2004, 11:22 AM
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Court, King, Evert and Navratilova met so many of the modern greats. If you look at the tough opponents thread in BFTP, you can see the calibre of many of their adversaries. That each of these four won often enough to carve out her niche in history is a testament to her stature. It'll be great when we can compile full h2h records for all of them against their major rivals.

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post #14 of 80 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 2004, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
30: 04 - 06 - 03 (13) 1989-1998 Arantxa Sanchez Vicario
Arantxa won 4 mixed GS in her career:
2000 - US Open (w/Palmer)
1993 - Australian Open (w/Woodbridge)
1992 - Roland Garros (w/Woodbridge)
1990 - Roland Garros (w/Lozano)


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post #15 of 80 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 2004, 12:09 PM
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U forgot Capriati in the "3 GS title" list.
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