Interesting point in Raymond/Williams match - TennisForum.com
 
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old Jan 24th, 2004, 06:18 AM Thread Starter
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Interesting point in Raymond/Williams match

Lisa won despite hitting 0 aces to Venus' 14 aces. Would that be possible in men's tennis?

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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old Jan 24th, 2004, 06:21 AM
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Yup -- look at Wayne Arthurs, or Taylor Dent. Usually they serve a proportional amount of doubles to their ace total -- that helps. In the case of "All Serve No Shots" Arthurs, he doesn't have the ground game to back it up.

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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old Jan 24th, 2004, 06:37 AM
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If I hadn't seen the match and someone told me that Venus served 14 aces (topping out at 120 MPH), I would have asked, "How many bagels did Lisa Raymond eat, one or two?" Strange.....

This match reminded me of the 1960 Presidential Debate between Kennedy and Nixon; those who listened to it on the radio thought that Nixon won, while those who watched it on TV thought that Kennedy won. After watching the match on TV, I thought Venus played terribly, but the match statistics didn't look that bad: 14-7 ace-DF ratio, 40-44 winner-UFE ratio, 56% on first serves, 87.6 MPH average second serve speed. Lisa Raymond dictated play and MADE Venus look bad. She played a great tactical match and deserved to win it.

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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old Jan 24th, 2004, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrinbaker00
Lisa Raymond dictated play and MADE Venus look bad. She played a great tactical match and deserved to win it.
I'm sorry but I gotta disagree with this....Venus had over forty something unforced errors...that in itself shows that Venus made herself look bad, Lisa Raymond played a SOLID game. She did a very good job in dictating Venus game today but those unforced error that were mostly not dictated by Raymond, helped her win her game today..along with Raymonds solid playing and aggressiveness.

Venus and Serena ....Often imitated NEVER duplicated!!!!!!!
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old Jan 24th, 2004, 06:57 AM
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The problem is that the DISPARITY between her first and second serve NULLIFIES that 14-0 lead in aces. I don't know if Venus had a lot of double faults but I am sure that she had a lot of second serves that were easy for lisa to tee off on.
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old Jan 24th, 2004, 07:06 AM
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Raymond(USA)Williams(USA) 1st Serve %43 of 68 = 63 %48 of 86 = 56 % Aces014 Double Faults27 Unforced Errors2144 Winning % on 1st Serve23 of 43 = 53 %29 of 48 = 60 % Winning % on 2nd Serve15 of 25 = 60 %14 of 38 = 37 % Winners (Including Service)2340 Break Point Conversions5 of 10 = 50 %4 of 5 = 80 % Net Approaches13 of 22 = 59 %8 of 14 = 57 % Total Points Won8173 Fastest Serve166 KPH193 KPH Average 1st Serve Speed155 KPH173 KPH Average 2nd Serve Speed132 KPH141 KPH

One thing learned!!!!! Serve speed and aces is not a guarantee!!!!!

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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old Jan 24th, 2004, 07:10 AM
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good post queenlindsay Venus's second serve pts won at only 37% is atrocious. I am sorry but when Hingis played with a crappy second serve she knew how to still when a ton of second serve pts due to her incredible anticipation and gritty consistency and finesse shots on the run. Venus's second serve IS WORSE THAN HINGIS'S was and given her height and physical gifts it is SHOCKING.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old Jan 24th, 2004, 07:56 AM Thread Starter
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I was VERY impressed by Raymond's game today (yesterday in USA ) I pretty much expected her to play corky inside out shots (a la doubles shots), but Lisa dictated STRONGLY from the center of the court and worked Venus form side to side I was shocked! I also wondered why Lisa doesn't rock'em'sock'em in more singles matches Oh yah, Lisa did win that Kroger St. Jude title last year Hopefully though, Lisa won't become one of the players who only brings their A-game when a Williams sister is across the net

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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old Jan 24th, 2004, 07:57 AM
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Lisa dicated because Venus didn't. her groundies weren't the same as they normally were. Not even close to being near the lines as they normally were
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old Jan 24th, 2004, 09:59 AM
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I was never comfortable with her saying she was simply hitting out for the first matches and would pull them in later in the tournament.
I have never been too convinced about her coaching and decision making... I feel there comes a time when maybe one needs pure professionalism in that area. I mean that it may be impossible for a relative...worse a mother/favour to be as clinical as is needed.
I am reminded how, in my opinion, so many bad decisions about what tournaments to play and so forth have been taken and lost Venus gaining or staying at the top.
I hope that this is a temprary set back and that she can settle down and play great tennis again soon. Her ranking is going to be so low now , she will have to.

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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old Jan 24th, 2004, 10:55 AM
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Lisa played solid, aggressive, intelligent tennis. i think that her doubles partnering with Navratilova has helped hugely bec more than anything, her net-game IMO made the difference. but her game was indeed solid all around. it was nice to watch.

Venus is not yet back in top form -- she's gone back to playing the error-strewn game she was playing a few years ago. as the commentators pointed out, she sometimes wasn't even looking at the ball at the point of contact -- just hitting out wildly and hoping for the best. it didn't work. then again how could it? she hasn't played in how many months?

nevertheless, congrats Lisa. excellent win...

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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old Jan 24th, 2004, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemWilliamsGulls
I'm sorry but I gotta disagree with this....Venus had over forty something unforced errors...
u r correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by treufreund
The problem is that the DISPARITY between her first and second serve NULLIFIES that 14-0 lead in aces. I don't know if Venus had a lot of double faults but I am sure that she had a lot of second serves that were easy for lisa to tee off on.
u r correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by treufreund
good post queenlindsay Venus's second serve pts won at only 37% is atrocious. I am sorry but when Hingis played with a crappy second serve she knew how to still when a ton of second serve pts due to her incredible anticipation and gritty consistency and finesse shots on the run. Venus's second serve IS WORSE THAN HINGIS'S was and given her height and physical gifts it is SHOCKING.
i'm not gonna check last yr but vee's 2nd serve points won @ AO:
58 1st rd
55 2nd rd
36 3rd rd

1stly: vee was injured so she couldn't run 4 the shots. (knee pre 1st rd, ankle during 1st rd).

2ndly: running abilities r only useful if one anticipates correctly. works 4 both vee and martina.

Quote:
Originally Posted by it-girl View Post
Let's just put it like this, there is Justine Bieber (I just threw up a little) who ... is hyped far beyond his talent.

Then you have Michael Jackson & that name speaks for itself, no hype needed at all.
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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old Jan 24th, 2004, 09:39 PM
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quoting %s obviously

Quote:
Originally Posted by it-girl View Post
Let's just put it like this, there is Justine Bieber (I just threw up a little) who ... is hyped far beyond his talent.

Then you have Michael Jackson & that name speaks for itself, no hype needed at all.
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